RoRo vs Terminus (was Loop vs 2-headed train network)

Post all other topics which do not belong to any other category.
Avezo
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:53 pm
Contact:

RoRo vs Terminus (was Loop vs 2-headed train network)

Post by Avezo »

I renamed the topic a bit, because of this good points: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=35806&p=224629#p224542 next page

RoRo : Roll-On, Roll-Off; trains enter the bottom end of station and exit the other end
Image

Terminus: These stations are the end of a railway line
Image
See https://wiki.openttd.org/Railway_station#Basic_stations
-- ßilk


I did search about this, bit I didn't find what I really wanted - a real big single thread about this 'issue'. I think it is important enough to have a 'big' thread about it - which means I don't really have any point to make myself here, I just want to hear from people who prefer either of those options (and in result it will make others learn a lot or so I believe).
Last edited by ssilk on Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited topic to fit subject

Acarin
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by Acarin »

For me, loop wins every time. It does depend on how big you plan to build your rail network (bi-directional is ok for smaller setups), but I always plan for high traffic. I also find that, while there is the disadvantage of having to lay twice as much track, I prefer not having to drag an extra locomotive backwards (which does slow your trains down).

Mehve
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 318
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by Mehve »

I'm firmly in the "Loop" camp, but neither approach is a game-breaker for most situations. I just can't think of any benefit to the double-headed method EXCEPT for when you don't have enough room to loop. Meanwhile, half the locomotives are deadweight at any given point, you need to get coal/wood/fuel to both ends of the train, and for a given power/cargo capacity setup, the double-header will actually need more room at the train stop.

User avatar
impetus maximus
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1299
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by impetus maximus »

i started Factorio with single engine, loop stops,
and single two way tracks with bypasses.
having played on servers with two headed trains and terminal stations, i've switched to two headed, with terminal stops.
it makes building stops, and stations SO much easier, and you need less track to do it. makes signalling less of a headache as well.

User avatar
theRustyKnife
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 258
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by theRustyKnife »

I'm wondering, am I the only one here who uses both as I see fit?

For real tho, isn't that the superior solution? You can enjoy all the advantages of big single headed trains with loop stations while still being able to build tiny utility-like terminal stations for L-C-L trains and such.
Same goes for single bidirectional vs dual one-way track (considering you can upgrade to dual one-way tracks quite easily if you need more throughput).

I haven't had a problem with these types of setups since chain signals were introduced. Idk, maybe I'm just not building big enough factories to see why one should be considered the better option...
Check out my mods!

User avatar
DaveMcW
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 11:06 am
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by DaveMcW »

theRustyKnife wrote:single bidirectional
... I haven't had a problem with these types of setups
:shock:

User avatar
theRustyKnife
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 258
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by theRustyKnife »

DaveMcW wrote:
theRustyKnife wrote:single bidirectional
... I haven't had a problem with these types of setups
:shock:
What's wrong? Just surprised I had no problems with it?
In that case it's because I don't have the entire network like that, only the places where it's appropriate - without much traffic going through ;)
Check out my mods!

Mehve
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 318
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by Mehve »

theRustyKnife wrote:What's wrong? Just surprised I had no problems with it?
In that case it's because I don't have the entire network like that, only the places where it's appropriate - without much traffic going through ;)
He might have just been pointing out the possible oxymoron there, you never know.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12888
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by ssilk »

theRustyKnife wrote:I haven't had a problem with these types of setups since chain signals were introduced. Idk, maybe I'm just not building big enough factories to see why one should be considered the better option...
Hm. After playing >500 hours with a two-way train map of about 20 square kilometers, 300 trains and 100 stops I can say, that the chain signals needs a bit more tweaking to enable the player to understand and see them a bit better.

1. See the signals, that influence this chain signal (mark the covered block and the signals? The current arrows are useful, but a underlaying color-highlight would help a lot).
2. Easy switching between normal and chain signal.
3. Enhance the "first" normal signal in a way that you see, that it influences chain signals.
4. If chain signal selected, show the player "better places" to put a chain signal on (For example: show all possible places to put a signal on, but enhance places before crossings when a normal signal follows).
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

User avatar
theRustyKnife
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 258
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by theRustyKnife »

Mehve wrote:
theRustyKnife wrote:What's wrong? Just surprised I had no problems with it?
In that case it's because I don't have the entire network like that, only the places where it's appropriate - without much traffic going through ;)
He might have just been pointing out the possible oxymoron there, you never know.
Oh :? well I meant one track with bidirectional traffic on it. What would the proper wording be tho?
Sorry, English is not my first language.
I have trouble with Czech too sometimes :roll:
ssilk wrote:
theRustyKnife wrote:I haven't had a problem with these types of setups since chain signals were introduced. Idk, maybe I'm just not building big enough factories to see why one should be considered the better option...
Hm. After playing >500 hours with a two-way train map of about 20 square kilometers, 300 trains and 100 stops I can say, that the chain signals needs a bit more tweaking to enable the player to understand and see them a bit better.

1. See the signals, that influence this chain signal (mark the covered block and the signals? The current arrows are useful, but a underlaying color-highlight would help a lot).
2. Easy switching between normal and chain signal.
3. Enhance the "first" normal signal in a way that you see, that it influences chain signals.
4. If chain signal selected, show the player "better places" to put a chain signal on (For example: show all possible places to put a signal on, but enhance places before crossings when a normal signal follows).
I think I agree with every single point here. Actually, I might try to make a mod for some of these things. At least switching between signal types with a hotkey (or something like that) should be easy ;)
Check out my mods!

Mehve
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 318
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by Mehve »

I didn't think there was anything wrong, myself. Maybe "Single-lane, bidirectional", if you wanted to be specific?

User avatar
ChurchOrganist
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by ChurchOrganist »

One thing I fail to understand about Factorio's rail implementation is why it doesn't reflect the ability of rail locomotives to contribute to power output whichever end of the train they are on.

As I may have said before, I came to Factorio via OpenTTD, and have always been mystified by this complete reversal of real life locomotive behaviour.

Certainly on British railways we have had control of multiple motor units from one locomotive at least since the Deltic was launched in the 1960's.

OK with steam locos you had to have crew in each locomotive, but Factorio's trains are supposed to be diesel!.

How about rectifying this strange situation devs?

Oh and to put this post back on topic - I prefer double-headed trains, but I'm pragmatic - if a situation calls for a loop-based solution I will build it.
Want to know where the biters chewing your power plant have come from??
Wondering where your next iron is going to come from??
You need Long Range Radar

Mehve
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 318
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by Mehve »

It's not that Factorio locomotives can't push, they simply have no reverse gear. But you can still stick them at the back, facing forwards, and get power from them.

I suppose it's just a gameplay thing. Similar to how the swinging inserter arms are limited strictly to 180 degree swings, with 45/90/135 degree movements impossible. Or how inserters will only place things on the far lane of a belt, despite clearly having the ability to grab stuff from either lane.

User avatar
impetus maximus
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1299
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by impetus maximus »

what ChurchOrganist is saying is most diesel locomotives can go fast in reverse.
i have to agree. if a second locomotive is attached, the power output should double.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12888
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by ssilk »

impetus maximus wrote:what ChurchOrganist is saying is most diesel locomotives can go fast in reverse.
The train routing is not longer reliable then. In loop-based layouts you quickly run into situations, where the routing calculates shorter distances, if loop trains can change direction. Result is: Train changes direction which is in loop-based layout a catastrophe.

And I would say the way it is now is just fair: The afford to build loops is higher than with 2-headed designs... it would be unfair to have single-headed trains which can change direction; nobody would use then that and we had no reasons to discuss. :D
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

User avatar
impetus maximus
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1299
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by impetus maximus »

i'm not saying a single engine train should be able to go full speed in reverse, or move in auto mode.
i'm saying if the head train is driving, the one in back should be able to double the torque.

orzelek
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3906
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:20 am
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by orzelek »

impetus maximus wrote:i'm not saying a single engine train should be able to go full speed in reverse, or move in auto mode.
i'm saying if the head train is driving, the one in back should be able to double the torque.
Currently data says that reverse power of factorio diesel is 0.6.
We can try to mod it and see if it behaves as expected (aka reverse engine will contribute to acceleration) or this attribute works in a different way.

User avatar
ChurchOrganist
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by ChurchOrganist »

Mehve wrote:It's not that Factorio locomotives can't push, they simply have no reverse gear.
If that is the case, then how come you can drive a single locomotive train backwards in manual mode?
Want to know where the biters chewing your power plant have come from??
Wondering where your next iron is going to come from??
You need Long Range Radar

User avatar
Deadly-Bagel
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1498
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:12 am
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by Deadly-Bagel »

I don't really get two-way trains... You need two lanes of track anyway so trains can pass each other and you're saving the 50 or so iron of building a loop but spending 280 on the extra locomotive. To boot, having trains constantly switch direction means no consistency with the carriages' order.
Money might be the root of all evil, but ignorance is the heart.

ratchetfreak
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 950
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 12:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Loop vs 2-headed train network

Post by ratchetfreak »

Deadly-Bagel wrote:I don't really get two-way trains... You need two lanes of track anyway so trains can pass each other and you're saving the 50 or so iron of building a loop but spending 280 on the extra locomotive. To boot, having trains constantly switch direction means no consistency with the carriages' order.
There is the option of single track with passing points/sidings however I very rarely see someone do that and the one time I did the signals were wrong (should be chain when entering the 2way track and normal when exiting). Not to mention it's a major bottle neck in a busy system.

Post Reply

Return to “General discussion”