Something I recently realised...

[FishSandwich]

Is that we're actually playing one of the bad guys in an alien invasion from Earth.

If you think about it.. You go to this planet, consume its natural resources and cause pollution by running your factories 24/7. All so you can get the planet ready for 'colonists' from Earth.

And the biters? They're just protecting their planet. They don't attack until you start polluting, and they only ever go after pollution creating buildings, plus any unlucky building that might be in their way to that pollution.

[aussiegaylord]

yes but you could do the solar approach. sure it takes time and a lot i mean A LOT of effort to establish a good working base but it means you can live in perfect harmony with them. and then when you want to expand you just clear away a couple of the pests like you would with mice and roaches and keep on going.

[Coolthulhu]

and then when you want to expand you just clear away a couple of the pests like you would with mice and roaches and keep on going.

Or men, women and children.
It takes a single "but they're just animals/pests/vermin" to change a visitor from other planet into an alien Hitler.

[kovarex]

Yes, the player is the evil one in this story, no doubt about that

[GROOV3ST3R]

Maybe we could shape our approach a little bit differently then? We could arrive on the planet and befriend the biters somehow or pay ore resources for slightly cleaner factories while sacrificing some efficiency - because low tech eco-friendly stuff is more difficult to produce than regular low tech stuff.

Just a thought. I would definitely like to see some ways of not pissing them off from the start OR ways to pacify them (or even enclose them without the use of expensive brick walls).

[aussiegaylord]

or you could come in like a wrecking ball... (yes. yes i did just do that) or just build around them. with the help of treefarm mod i just enclose them in trees and have never been attacked because once i have solar the only thing producing pollution is my train and that goes on such a big loop and goes through that many forrests (self planted) that they dont care

[Garm]

Not every game needs this good\bad dichotomy.


Leave Factorio as it is right now, there are so few games like that already.

[ssilk]

This is a good point.

But I want to reflect it a bit.

- last year we (some forum members) said, it is important, that there is a way to live in peace with them. The devs took this idea and I think the pollution and efficiency modul and some other mechanics comes from that.
- when I play the game, I don't feel forced to make me friends. Or in other words: I don't feel a moral need to find ways to live in peace with them.
- I like the fighting, even if it is a bit unbalanced, unneeded hard yet. I would like them, to be more, much more (!) difficult sometimes.
- I see, that to be gentle with the biters ( to be able to achieve alien eggs on another way), cannot reach - not nearly reach - the current approach with the fight.
- it takes so much longer to go the small pollution way.
- and I don't see an alternative, or a better usage.

I think the idea to make peace with the natives works only, if the player is forced to or if the advantages are so big. Forcing the players to do something is not good gameplay. Then advantages are left. Some examples:

- not being forced to built too much weapons
- no offense
- getting some very special research/technology
- making goods. Food. Other stuff.
- speed up research/development/building.
- gameplay must be nearly equally fast.
- get so familiar with them, that you have scruple to kill them.

And because those points are really difficult to implement (no idea how) I think it is ok to think about, if it is a good idea, that we bring this point to graveyard.

[aussiegaylord]

well they could do it so that if their is extended amounts of time that neither player or biter attacks one another they become more reluctant to do so. so you could have like 1100 bits of pollution instead of just 1000 and so on and so forth so that you are rewarded for not killing them but if you do go out and kill them they become more hostile, grow faster then normal and attack more often, so from like 1000 pollution to 900.

[Garm]

well they could do it so that if their is extended amounts of time that neither player or biter attacks one another they become more reluctant to do so. so you could have like 1100 bits of pollution instead of just 1000 and so on and so forth so that you are rewarded for not killing them but if you do go out and kill them they become more hostile, grow faster then normal and attack more often, so from like 1000 pollution to 900.

Again you are making the game favour "peaceful" mode. Factorio already rewards "green" playstyle with decreased biter attacks - why ask for more?



Let players choose how they want to play the game - dont turn game into passive-agressive construct, that tries to "encourage" peaceful playstyle.

[Elijah]

I'd like the game to give you more possibilities for interactions with them and amongst them. It'd be cool to see "herbivore" biters grazing iron ore while normal ones hunt them.

[ludsoe]

I'd like the game to give you more possibilities for interactions with them and amongst them. It'd be cool to see "herbivore" biters grazing iron ore while normal ones hunt them.

Maybe that should be experimented with, might change the game from MINE,BUILD,POLLUTE,MINE....... And would expand the exploration feel of the game.

Here's a game that got something along your ideas right.
http://www.wakingmars.com/

[ssilk]

Hm. Grazing iron ore? Lol.

Well, till then I liked the idea. The pollution will cast out that animals, the reason, why the biters hate us... Might work, to catch those animals...

[Calico]

Yes, the player is the evil one in this story, no doubt about that

I hate playing the bad guy.

I don't really imagine beeing one myself in factorio really. Ok, it might not be nice to come to this planet and pollute everything and take all the ressources... but there really isn't a lot of choice involved, with hundreds or thousands of colonists depending on my sucess. Maybe we didn't know that the planet was inhabited when we started the long journey, maybe there wasn't another location in reach. Maybe we had to leave, with our home beeing hit by some disaster or war.

When hunting Biters i really do it out of necessity, not because i hate them. Would a hunter feel bad for shooting some deer, if his own survival and maybe his family would depend on it? And this kind of deer actually fights back.

I'd give myself a "neutral good" alignment, if this was a D&D scenario. I occassionally do bad things, but not because i like doing them. If i have to break or bend some civilized rules to reach for the greater good, so be it. That doesn't make me evil, just not very good.

[kovarex]

I understand it.
But if some alien civilisation came to earth and started killing all of us in one huge massacre. We would hardly say that they are not evil, just because they didn't know we are here, and they need to make space for they incoming colonisation ships.

[ssilk]

Exactly this conflict should be more enhanced!

Currently there are not much consequences. But if the natives want, they really could make the game impossible hard.

[Calico]

I understand it.
But if some alien civilisation came to earth and started killing all of us in one huge massacre. We would hardly say that they are not evil, just because they didn't know we are here, and they need to make space for they incoming colonisation ships.

But are biters sentient? I would have much more moral qualms if they were... but as of now i imagine them more like wolves or some other form of carnivores. Ok, huge wolves, with a carapace and a lot bigger teeth. And more legs. Still, they don't strike me as sentient. And i'm not planning to wipe them off the face of the planet, i just want a chunk of it. No need to "kill them all".

With enough advanced technology it might even be possible to strike a balance later when the colony is up and running. As far as i can tell, a planet is huge, with enough room for a colony of humans and lots of nice little biter nests.

[slay_mithos]

Well, Bitters seems to be intelligent enough to build shelters, to identify the source(s) of threats and are usually not attacking without reasons to, rather than just hunting like animals.

As this is a game, you can think this however you want, but we are playing with the goal to permanently invade a planet, and killing masses of bitters and their shelters in the process of expanding our hold on a landing ground.

[ssilk]

As far as i can tell, a planet is huge, with enough room for a colony of humans and lots of nice little biter nests.

Very good point.

I just think that each type of landscape has it's own speciality. For example the dessert area is ... dessert. Empty. Nothing there. Just place. We can built in it more or less good. The problem is the lack of water.
(BTW: I think the refinery and everything else can use much more water, so that water is not only a problem of availability, but also from capacity).
The green areas are that of the biters. Oil is only available where much water is. Iron/copper are in distinct areas. Normally far from each other.

[ludsoe]

Well, Bitters seems to be intelligent enough to build shelters, to identify the source(s) of threats and are usually not attacking without reasons to, rather than just hunting like animals.

As this is a game, you can think this however you want, but we are playing with the goal to permanently invade a planet, and killing masses of bitters and their shelters in the process of expanding our hold on a landing ground.

Not to mention that we raid their colonies to obtain THEIR alien tech.