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This is really more an "ask the devs" thread than a discussion thread, but some healthy discussion on the subject is good anyway.

So far biters are unintelligent, basically ants. This has led to two of my ideas (Inter-nest Diplomacy and War (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21211) and Alien Tech salvaging (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21213) being shot down, which I'll go ahead and say is a large part of my motivation to start this thread.

However, the idea of alien peace (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3762) has been proposed- something that complete unintelligence wouldn't allow. Additionally, while not dev-endorsed, there's a thread floating around (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1234) for new alien (creeper) types- particularly, the thief. Stealing materials for the sake of stealing materials discerns some intelligence, though not a lot.

So, why not discuss what biters should actually be? Intelligent? Brainless? Ants? ...Ants?

The biters seem pretty unintelligent because of the limits of computer AI. Their behaviour is very simplistic and their pathfinding is shoddy... But I have seen some old gameplay videos where they were actually cavemen-like humanoids. So I think they're supposed to be pretty intelligent. I think if alien peace was ever going to be realistic, they would have to give them more complex behaviour to make them seem more intelligent. Like, currently, when a nest is angered, it begins to gather an attack force at the same spot, which follows the same path towards the same pollution source, and runs happily into your guns at the same place.

well from first glance you could say the biters follow alot of influence from zerg faction from starcraft, so with some home grown lore, perhaps a *cough* queen *cough* I mean faction leader, I think they could be fleshed out fairly well to do such things as democracy. the starcraft zerg lore is fairly interesting btw

I like the brainless ants. It gives that Starship Troopers feel.

Sentience:

Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness. The possession of sapience is not a necessity. The word sentient is often confused with the word sapient, which can connote knowledge, consciousness, or apperception.

The Aliens are at least sentient, they can detect pollution and the player.

Intelligence:

the ability to learn or understand things or to deal with new or difficult situations

Full Definition of intelligence
1
a (1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)

The Aliens are potentially intelligent.

They can reroute around blocked paths.
They can modify their environment (by attacking it) to remove obstacles or items generating pollution.

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Additionally, when attempting to form a path, the Aliens will prefer to use a previously defined path unless it has changed (has since become blocked).
This path sharing behavior occurs across all Aliens, which implies some form of pheromone use to identify paths or a hive mind that stores and shares paths.

Intelligence is very relative. See the problems to define it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence

But as already said, the natives (they are not the aliens, they are living on that planet, we are the aliens!) could not be very intelligent, cause they are so many and had so less need to develop into intelligent species on this planet. Or did you see some other species?

ssilk wrote:Or did you see some other species?

I've seen one species of fish, and multiple species of trees.

Ok, besides trees and fish, who has seen other species there?

ssilk wrote:Ok, besides trees and fish, who has seen other species there?

Some grasses, weeds, and corals, too.

I don't know about the Zerg but it sounds kind of similar to the Primes from Peter F Hamilton's Commonwealth books?
In these books the Primes are composed of two castes: unintelligent motiles, who can move around and obey orders, and intelligent immotiles, who can't move and give the orders. They communicate with a kind of touch-telepathy (passing nerve signals between each other with specialised antennae), and clusters of connected immotiles share a distributed personality and intelligence. motiles have only enough brain power to act autonymously, and don't have seperate personalities. In effect, the motiles are like an extension of the immotile's body, instead of individuals.
Perhaps the biters can be something like this: each nest (by which I mean cluster of spawners + worms) is actually a single intelligent organism based underground. Spawners and worms are actually part of the nest entity's body. The biters and spitters are themselves dumb insects, but follow orders given by the nest entities. That means you can engage nest entities in diplomacy (maybe after doing research that lets you discover the true nature of the biters).

I see the Biters and all such associated Natives of the planet like the Tyranid's (Without the whole eat entire planets thing). They will send wave upon wave upon wave of absolutely awful bugs at you, attemtping to break your defences with minimal effort. When that fails they begin to evolve bigger and more dangerous Biters and Spitters the more of a threat you become to them. I would say they are at least equal to a standard Gaunt. I don't think they capable of higher thought process'. They are intellegent enough to focus first on anything that can kill them (Turrets and Player) then the passive things that can't hurt them. Also once they find a target they seem to go after that no matter what other threat is there. I would say they are intellegent and able for basic, extremly basic reasoning but are extremly stupid.

MalcolmCooks wrote: Perhaps the biters can be something like this: each nest (by which I mean cluster of spawners + worms) is actually a single intelligent organism based underground. Spawners and worms are actually part of the nest entity's body. The biters and spitters are themselves dumb insects, but follow orders given by the nest entities. That means you can engage nest entities in diplomacy (maybe after doing research that lets you discover the true nature of the biters).

But why should evolution create that?

Supercheese wrote:

ssilk wrote:Ok, besides trees and fish, who has seen other species there?

Some grasses, weeds, and corals, too.

Ok, and besides grasses, weeds, corals and whatever I also forgot: who has seen other species?

ssilk wrote:

MalcolmCooks wrote: Perhaps the biters can be something like this: each nest (by which I mean cluster of spawners + worms) is actually a single intelligent organism based underground. Spawners and worms are actually part of the nest entity's body. The biters and spitters are themselves dumb insects, but follow orders given by the nest entities. That means you can engage nest entities in diplomacy (maybe after doing research that lets you discover the true nature of the biters).

But why should evolution create that?

Supercheese wrote:

ssilk wrote:Ok, besides trees and fish, who has seen other species there?

Some grasses, weeds, and corals, too.

Ok, and besides grasses, weeds, corals and whatever I also forgot: who has seen other species?

Evolution could create it as a way to keep the central entity alive, by zerging mindless drones at any competitors. At some point this was rendered irrelevant, as we see by the symbiosis at work, but it could possibly just be the relic of past times. Who knows why the biters evolved to be so hostile anyway? Why there are no large land mammals on our little world?

Additionally, if you think of the nests as sort of the "queen ant" it's not as strange a proposition.

I'd love to see always harder, more intelligent, more "boss-like" aliens as one gets fare away from spawn point. The kind you won't be able to turret creep, and that will potentially kick your butt if you're not careful. The same way a RSO-like ressource generation is going to make it into vanilla, a kind of difficulty gradient starting at lowest where you start, and then raising as you get far away. And at one point, start seeing immobile, but really hard to kill and well defended "bosses" (queens, commander, whatever), who would drop some kind of material needed for very high end tech.

Koub wrote:I'd love to see always harder, more intelligent, more "boss-like" aliens as one gets fare away from spawn point. The kind you won't be able to turret creep, and that will potentially kick your butt if you're not careful. The same way a RSO-like ressource generation is going to make it into vanilla, a kind of difficulty gradient starting at lowest where you start, and then raising as you get far away. And at one point, start seeing immobile, but really hard to kill and well defended "bosses" (queens, commander, whatever), who would drop some kind of material needed for very high end tech.

Which (I hate to keep hitting you guys over the head with this but whatever) could also be integrated into the alien diplomacy thing as a sort of gift, or, they could fight each other for power. They could also start off weak but gain power by stealing all your stuff and synthesizing lost alien technology.

I prefer a me vs them to a FFA where biters fight other biters. Not that your suggestion is bad, it's just I prefer it that way

I attribute to Biters intelligence approximately equivalent to WWI military generals, charging into a hail of gunfire is just the best tactic they can think of.

Also:

Biters live in peace and harmony, you never see them fight each other, even though they fight rocks and trees if they get in their way. Conclusion: Biters are a peaceful species, they work out their differences without bloodshed or conflict.

Unfortunately:
The Biters customary greeting is to run up and give a vigorous friendly biting (it's kind of like dogs, but even biterier, you see biters are armored so a good friendly biting is rousing and does no harm)

When the alien known only as "The Stinker" landed on the planet, they sent welcoming committees. The Stinker responded with a form of "ranged biting" which hurt and indicated a lack of social skills on the part of The Stinker, but this is to be expected with first contact, so the Biters kept trying to make friendly contact.

Eventually the biters decided to develop a form of "ranged biting" of their own in their efforts to communicate with The Stinker, so they evolved the spitter, about this time The Stinker developed a form of flaming death launcher (laser turret) which the Biters and Spitters didn't quite know what to make of. They evolved larger, armored forms to try and get through The Stinker's walls, where it lived in a kind of sad introverted isolation without any friends or contact with other living things. The Biters were desperate to help it.

Unfortunately the biters never realized that The Stinker was just murdering them and taking their stuff, because being peaceful and harmonious creatures who have never known war they have no concept of psychopaths or megalomaniacs or genocide

Really it's all a tragic misunderstanding, except on behalf of The Stinker, who has no interest in communicating and really does want to just kill them and take their stuff, honestly if there were fluffy bunnies hopping around the ore field The Stinker would murder them and take the ore, it is a vile and bloodthirsty creature, quite unlike the peaceful and diplomatic Biters.

BlakeMW wrote:I attribute to Biters intelligence approximately equivalent to WWI military generals, charging into a hail of gunfire is just the best tactic they can think of.

Come now, during the course of WW1, the Tank, Bomber, Fighter, Railroad Artillery, and underground Sappers were applied with success.

Supercheese wrote:

BlakeMW wrote:I attribute to Biters intelligence approximately equivalent to WWI military generals, charging into a hail of gunfire is just the best tactic they can think of.

Come now, during the course of WW1, the Tank, Bomber, Fighter, Railroad Artillery, and underground Sappers were applied with success.

Except all of those are just different ways of charging into a hail of gunfire.

Tanks charge into a hail of gunfire and soak up bullets. Bombers and fighters dodge gunfire to send their own slightly advanced gunfire. Railroad arty makes it easier to charge into gunfire. Sappers let more people charge under, then into gunfire.

Tyranids...all i can think of when seeing biters are tyranids...

They are on a planet and it seems like they are the only species here (except fish), so all other species are dead.

They attack in waves and get stronger in every attack.

It should be able to have a new option to the spawn rate of the clusters. Probably something like "growing" or "aggression". It limits the amout of growing the enemy base. So for example, if you turn it to full, but the spawnrate low, you will have some very big clusters where huge waves start to attack you.