About the endgame - kinda frustrating today

[BobMalone]

Hello,

First of all, I have to say that this great is outstanding, I already spent hundred of hours on it and it's not over. This beeing said, I am kinda frustrated by the endgame rocket idea, I have no clue what's for, and what's next in fact... I don't want to stop when I launch my first rocket but I don't see the point to launch more than one too... I could set my own goals but the game should provide more option regarding to endgame and infinite replayability... It's like the core game is done but endgame is not completed yet or even not done at all, and when I read that they gave up the idea about a space station, it's ok, but they should find something else.

What's your opinion about it ?

[Peter34]

It's about the journey, not about the arrival. If you find you reach the end game too quickly, then adjust the game settings next time you play, to make it harder.

My main wish would be for some more challenging aliens towards the very end. I think I'd like to see the Evolution Factor thing re-scaled, so that what's now 100% becomes 33% or even 25%, leaving another 67% or even 75% of additional increasing difficulty, with 2 tiers of Bitters and Spitters even tougher and more damaging than the Behemoths. Ideally so that you don't always reach evo100 before completing the game.

The devs have hinted at a new enemy type, something eight-legged, that'll arrive with alpha 13 (i.e. maybe spring or summer 2016), but have not released any details. My own guess it'll be a normal-tier enemy, not anything for a post-Behemoth tier, but able to climb over Walls, or jump over 1-width Walls, and possibly a bit resistant to Laser type damage (without any in-game realism justification).

[MeduSalem]

It's about the journey, not about the arrival. If you find you reach the end game too quickly, then adjust the game settings next time you play, to make it harder.

Well, worst possible excuse for any game, movie/tv-series or any kind of media not having a proper "ending".

The journey may be fun the first few times, but after that it undeniably gets boring eventually because there is no point in doing it all over again from scratch, not even for the sake of trying a different approach because it ends in the same dull deadend. (I am talking vanilla without mods, mods are an entirely different story altogether and shouldn't be brought up as a solution to a serious problem the vanilla game suffers from.)

Because to be honest I have found efficient builds for everything to suit my personal playstyle after having finished 5-10 games and ever since I never do anything different anymore because it would be like crippling myself on purpose just to make it more challenging again, which is not something the player should have to do to himself just to squeeze a few more hours of "forced fun" out of the game. That's counterproductive and eventually kills all the fun because it becomes tedious and much more like work.



Honestly when the devs announced that they "abandoned" the planned endgame until further notice I was pretty much dissapointed. Not because they abandoned the ambitious planned one, but because it's almost sure that the game won't get an endgame at all for the final release but rather sticks to the dull Rocket Launch which is a replacement-placeholder for another placeholder that came before that and not even much better in doing exactly that.



I wrote it multiple times in other threads/topics already, the problem is following:

In late/endgame there are no consumers for the produced goods.

As long as there no consumers the late/endgame will always be boring because there is no need to produce anything anymore, no need to expand, no need to defend, no need to do anything. It becomes a huge waste of time by simply hording resources one will never need anyways.


A simple way to fix that is to implement a basic way to sell/deliver goods to somewhere and achieving that doesn't have to be as sophisticated and ambitious as the space platform endgame proposal used to be. A simple space port (like a building that can be placed) or random settlements of a civilized alien species on the map (which would also add a logistic element to the game and thereby increase the usefulness of trains) or whatever to drop the stuff off to would suffice and may impose enough of an artificial demand challenge which has to be satisfied by the player.

The "demand" generated by the space port or a settlement could be randomly/dynamically adjusted to impose different challenges and goals/missions the player has to accomplish throughout the course of the game so it doesn't always end in the same factory layouts. It may even provide different bonus items/effects to the player/factory if they are achieved etc.

I think that such a system that doesn't depend on too much additional graphical work or programming would at least be a better "temporary endgame" than having none at all. Games like Industry Giant, Transport Giant and similar type of games all offer near to endless gameplay because there is always someone who needs all the crap the industry is producing. The formula works so why not implement at least something like that. One doesn't always have to invent the wheel from scratch.

[ccik]

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 93&t=15308


That's what i'm using for the continous need of ressources.

I just set myself more and more goals, starting with one rocket per hour, then 5 per hour, etc..., always expanding my factory. This seems to work somewhat well for me, but i do agree we need something more to consume all the goods we produce, and not only the ingredients for the rocket and satellite.

[Kalanndok]

A simple way to fix that is to implement a basic way to sell/deliver goods to somewhere and achieving that doesn't have to be as sophisticated and ambitious as the space platform endgame proposal used to be. A simple space port (like a building that can be placed) or random settlements of a civilized alien species on the map (which would also add a logistic element to the game and thereby increase the usefulness of trains) or whatever to drop the stuff off to would suffice and may impose enough of an artificial demand challenge which has to be satisfied by the player.

The "demand" generated by the space port or a settlement could be randomly/dynamically adjusted to impose different challenges and goals/missions the player has to accomplish throughout the course of the game so it doesn't always end in the same factory layouts. It may even provide different bonus items/effects to the player/factory if they are achieved etc.

I think that such a system that doesn't depend on too much additional graphical work or programming would at least be a better "temporary endgame" than having none at all. Games like Industry Giant, Transport Giant and similar type of games all offer near to endless gameplay because there is always someone who needs all the crap the industry is producing. The formula works so why not implement at least something like that. One doesn't always have to invent the wheel from scratch.

Why would it need to be civilized alien species?
Quite an easy way might be like a feeding station for biters and spitters. If stocked with "biter-food" produced in our factory each spawner in its range (maybe 500x500 tiles) can consume more a certain amount of pollution without spawning an attacker. For each pollution consumed in such a way one item of food gets taken from the feeding station (and needs to be restocked). By that you get more logistical challenges and a way to deal with the biters like more greenpeacy...

[MeduSalem]

Why would it need to be civilized alien species?

Well it was an example... if someone can come up with something better and unique for consuming all the possible items one can produce I am not against it. But whatever it is it shouldn't be too far fetched or it would end in another dilemma where the devs would just abandon the overall idea again, if they are willing to even invest some additional time for at least a better temporary endgame at all rather than delaying it to an addon/dlc or future update beyond 1.0 which nobodoy knows when it is going to be if at all.

[Peter34]

A simple way to fix that is to implement a basic way to sell/deliver goods to somewhere and achieving that doesn't have to be as sophisticated and ambitious as the space platform endgame proposal used to be. A simple space port (like a building that can be placed) or random settlements of a civilized alien species on the map (which would also add a logistic element to the game and thereby increase the usefulness of trains) or whatever to drop the stuff off to would suffice and may impose enough of an artificial demand challenge which has to be satisfied by the player.

The "demand" generated by the space port or a settlement could be randomly/dynamically adjusted to impose different challenges and goals/missions the player has to accomplish throughout the course of the game so it doesn't always end in the same factory layouts. It may even provide different bonus items/effects to the player/factory if they are achieved etc.

I think that such a system that doesn't depend on too much additional graphical work or programming would at least be a better "temporary endgame" than having none at all. Games like Industry Giant, Transport Giant and similar type of games all offer near to endless gameplay because there is always someone who needs all the crap the industry is producing. The formula works so why not implement at least something like that. One doesn't always have to invent the wheel from scratch.

I did not write the above.

[Buggi]

I always hoped for a sort of Hive Mind central enemy base that you'd have to bring down that would spawn randomly some distance away from your starting location that would have ever increasing density and difficulty of enemies as you get closer to it. Bringing that down would be the ultimate end game. Launching rockets could simply launch things into space that helped with that process. Sure you just put satellites up now, but what about weapons, communication, and spy satellites?

Also, I think adding programmed in "Achievements" would go a LONG way to helping drive additional playthroughs.

Achievement ideas?
Launch a rocket while ONLY using burner inserters. Placing any other type of inserter would void the achievement.
Launch 10 rockets in 10 minutes.
Have 200 trains going at once.
Kill 5,000 Behemoth Biters.

Etc.
Etc.

The Hive base idea would force a player to continually make combat robots, ammo, as well as strong power suit load-outs. Possibly adding "durability" to power suit shields would make you have to continually craft those as well.
Have an option to turn off Achievements if _any_ mods are added. I say option as some people have different play styles and they would find more fun in using some mods to get said achievements. I look at achievements as personal goals rather than bragging rights.

[Supercheese]

I always hoped for a sort of Hive Mind central enemy base that you'd have to bring down that would spawn randomly some distance away from your starting location that would have ever increasing density and difficulty of enemies as you get closer to it. Bringing that down would be the ultimate end game. Launching rockets could simply launch things into space that helped with that process. Sure you just put satellites up now, but what about weapons, communication, and spy satellites?

Might I direct you to my Orbital Ion Cannon mod?

[BobMalone]

Orbital Ion Canon mod is great and adds few hours to the endgame which is great... But I definately need more stuff

[Buggi]

Bob, what did you think of my idea of a large "Hive Mind" sort of goal?

When I say the enemies get tougher I really mean a LOT tougher. Which would require the player to build ever encroaching outposts to stem the tide as they would be constantly raiding once you got within a certain radius of the main hive.

As for the Hive itself, millions of hitpoints, something you can't just swoop in with 200 bots and take out in one go.

I'm still waiting to see if the dev's put in flying enemies, a sort of really advanced evolution.

[BobMalone]

why not, could be interesting depending on how it's implemented.

[ssilk]

Bob, what did you think of my idea of a large "Hive Mind" sort of goal?

You are not the only, that had this idea: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/sea ... mit=Search

You can also search for "boss enemy" and other similar stuff. It's a logical direction.

I personally would like that as "one possible direction". Other possible directions are for example to colonize the planet or to build a big space platform. My personal favorite is to build a really big "cities of factories". Some Factory, which is about 50-100 times bigger, than the currently needed factory for endgame. But that is of course not everyones taste. As I said: Many possibilities, many directions, the game can go and I want them all.

[safan]

I don't get al that focus on "endgame" stuff.
I compare this game to transport tycoon, cities:skylines or other open-ended sandbox. Those games have no real endgame. They have cash that is very important in the beginning but after a while you make so much you have to try hard to bankcrupt yourself. So what do we play those games for: to satisfy ourself: "look at this 400k population city with no traffic problems" or "look at this extended train system".

There is only a few things factorio needs:
1. A statistic list that can be used to boast or compliment ourself (look at this factory that makes 100 m electronic circuits each minute, i've made 3 trillion copper wire, ...) Something that can be screenshotted or maybe a pdf with a listing and the numbers.
2. some more endgame stuff to make and store, with this being a 'score'. The rockets alone are a bit underwhelming. I ofted do this with weapons (1 million rocket launchers)
3. some way to make endgame factories not only being about making new outposts because your factory can drain that new iron field faster than you need to link it to the factory.

[MeduSalem]

I don't get al that focus on "endgame" stuff.
I compare this game to transport tycoon, cities:skylines or other open-ended sandbox. Those games have no real endgame. They have cash that is very important in the beginning but after a while you make so much you have to try hard to bankcrupt yourself. So what do we play those games for: to satisfy ourself: "look at this 400k population city with no traffic problems" or "look at this extended train system".

Well games like Transport Tycoon don't sit on 100 million iron/copper plates rotting for all eternity because there is nothing to invest them in. Building new outposts and rail tracks is not nearly enough consumption in that matter. On the opposite, with more outposts you get even more useless resources to settle dust upon.

In Transport Tycoon you are able to play far beyond the initial mission goals because there's enough stuff to do (satisfying customers) on a map beyond what is needed to reach the necessary goal. Don't get me wrong, there is even a point at which playing Transport Tycoon gets boring, especially if you are drawing from every producing industry and delivering to every city and there is nothing else to do anymore, but depending on the size of the map that is almost impossible to reach if at all. At least I never reached that point back in that game because I eventually grew tired of looking at the same map for too long.

That's why Factorio can't be compared to Transport Tycoon or Industry Giant and games like that when it comes to "endgame".

• In Transport Tycoon, Industry Giant there actually is a production/consumption cycle: You have "consumers" eventually removing goods from the system introducing something like a demand challenge.
• In Factorio there is only a production cycle and for the first part of the game we are our own consumer up to the point we researched everything. After that we start hoarding for no reason because beyond us there is no one who needs all the crap.

Those are two of the main differences why I eventually get bored with a map in Factorio. There are no real reasons to play beyond sending a Rocket to space other than self-imposed ones. I played enough maps to that point to be able to say... "Yeah... The game is pretty awesome as long as you have to build something but if there is no point in building anymore it gets boring/tiresome." And that's something I really hate to say about a game I grew very attached to and which has a lot of unexplored potential to offer, especially on THAT part.

City building games like Cities: Skylines or Sim City are an entirely different genre with different problems of their own to begin with. The important part is that there are no real goods being produced in those games. Or at least I wouldn't refer to population as "goods". And even if one reduces Sim City population to "goods", they don't cause the disturbing feeling inside of me that they are just sitting around doing nothing like 100 million iron/copper plates do in my storage systems in Factorio. Instead the growing population brings the city to life as they are building skyscrapers, factories and whatnot. There the actual growing amount of population (or "goods") actually has a visual pleasing and satisfying effect, which Factorio doesn't have. At least I don't find it pleasing to look at seemingly endless fields of Storage Chests filled with crap for no good.

On one hand the game encourages being efficient and having long term strategies and on the other hand when reaching the Rocket Silo it turns my perspective upside down because after that it's all like "who cares for efficiency, just grab all the unnecessary ore and dump it into the storage system for no reason."

That said I am again talking about Vanilla Factorio. Mods are an entirely different topic unrelated to endgame problems a vanilla game suffers from.

[safan]

Excellent answer, i'll try to point out some things:

You say that the games need consumers: actually this won't change things since consumers will convert materials to some number: being cash, population, influence, or a score. Even the current rockets are a resource sink converting materials to a score. I agree there could be some more stuff to do, but mods cover this.

Essentially in TT or C:SL you will also eventually reach a point that cash doesn't matter. It's estetically more pleasing to have a number xxxx trillion cash then fields and fields of chests filled with copper plates, but in fact its just the same. I expect this will come in the game eventually, if just to reduce the load of having all those filled chests.

What i'm trying to find out is why it would be more interesting to have a cash account. This could be fun if coupled with a mod that gives a cost for every belt, assembling machine and inserter in the factory, so you would have to keep it positive. But just cash, with nothing to spend it on, is not better then what whe have now.

The reason i compare with c:sl is because it's a play on population and traffic. You don't have goods, but you still need efficient ways to get the population to work, the goods to the stores, and the population to the stores. In factorio you also have to find ways to move things and the beauty is when you manage to move a lot of stuff in a way that nothing blocks. The 1 rocket a second map is impressive because you know just how much you need to move and organise to reach that.

[MeduSalem]

You say that the games need consumers: actually this won't change things since consumers will convert materials to some number: being cash, population, influence, or a score. Even the current rockets are a resource sink converting materials to a score. I agree there could be some more stuff to do, but mods cover this.

Well exactly that's against my point and why I am getting bored with Factorio already.

No offense intended but honestly I don't give a damn about raw numbers, points or a score. I stopped with that attitude back in 1992 when I got my first Super Nintendo and games became a lot more sophisticated compared to the "get as fast to the end of the level as possible to reach a new highscore!" approach. Some of the games like Super Metroid or Super Mario World weren't about getting high scores but rather about exploration and 100% completion. In both games you could go and kill the endboss the fastest way possible if you wanted to but then you missed out on a huge part of the game by discovering all the secrets and whatnot and that's what replay value is about. Things to do beyond doing the necessary like alternative routes, discovering secrets, fullfilling side quests, whatever. That's been the turning point for me after which I never looked back at getting high scores again, ever.

That said reaching highscores or doing speedruns and all that stuff will always remain a valid option on how to play a game, but that's not where evolution of game development stopped.

With newer games the chance of reaching 100% completion becomes more and more utopia with all the open world games around. It would take forever to do everything in one single playthrough of such a game not to say that by choosing certain paths you might even lock yourself out of some others thereby encouraging replays. 90% of the stuff is not really necessary to go and kill the endboss or to trigger the "mission accomplished" screen but it still offers some value and satisfaction to do all that. Nobody is asking to turn Factorio into something like Fallout or Elder Scrolls or whatever...

... but In Factorio every step we take, almost everything we are able to do is already the necessary thing to do on the way to launching the rocket. So when you reach the Rocket silo you realize "That's it. I'm done with the game." and no amount of resources I gather beyond that changes something about it because I already exploited all the possibilities on the way to launching the rocket.

Of course there is stuff like the Circuit Network and I could fiddle around with it for hours (which I did) but to what reveal? It doesn't provide a consumer for the 1000 inserters I created, for the 1000 engines I have around or whatever item in discussion. So there is no real purpose in fiddling around and coming up with more sophisticated circuit network implementations to increase factory efficiency because I don't need it to get to the Rocket Silo (which is perfectly okay in my opinion) BUT there is also no purpose beyond the rocket silo because collecting resources just for the sake of collecting resources to hoard them in the storage system is so braindead boring that I give up on the map and call it a day before I would ever invest some time to come up with something sophisticated with the ciricuit network more than setting 3 values on the pumps for oil cracking control... and that's truly sad.

Like I said... Mods aren't the solution to the lack of gameplay beyond the Rocket Silo. It's a problem the vanilla game suffers from. For me there is no real reason to come back to a map where I finished researching everything. And to be honest starting over with a new map another 10 times won't change anything about the "I get bored as soon as I reached rocket silo" feeling because that's what I already did more than 2 or 3 dozen times the past 2 years.



And to my analysis in games beyond 2010 that's all "endgame" is about... to be able to do something beyond/besides reaching the intended main "mission goal". Of course one could go ahead and hit the killswitch and that's it but then the game is over and you are done with it. That's why pure singleplayer games don't sell anymore. That's why games with the most sophisticated mainstory ever are doomed to rot on the shelves or get bad reviews despite the efforts.

I say it right away... I don't want to hear stuff like "If there is nothing to do, go and find some challenges yourself!" because that's NOT my job when playing a game. It is the job of the game designers to do that if they want to ensure a lasting experience instead of a summer blockbuster with little replay value. Not that Factorio is something that is played in a breeze and then to be put away... On the contrary, one can invest dozens of hours alone before reaching the Rocket silo but we have to face the fact that there is no reason to do it 10 times over or to continue playing after reaching rocket silo.

• Neither does a newly generated map change much of the gameplay (you still do exactly the same thing in exactly the same order)
• Nor is there a real reason to continue investing time on an already established map once you researched everyhting.

People may agree with me or not but I simply don't care about self-imposed challenges like producing one Rocket per second. If I have to find challenges myself I might as well be continuing to work on my own projects in reallife. Just that they don't have anything to do with Factorio.

And that's when we are entering a philosophical debate almost the scale of "What is the purpose of life?" just that the question is "What is fun? And if it is fun to which extend is it fun?" and if a game, which is supposed to satisfy my need for fun is asking me to find my own ways to have fun then it somehow doesn't do its job right or I have exceeded its capabilities to provide fun. Saying that I don't want to discredit Factorio, because the game is a lot of fun as long as it provides one with stuff to do. It's more on the general attitude of people always coming up with the excuse of "set your own goals".



I guess that is where I have to say that being stranded on a planet with aliens may be an interesting survival aspect for the first part of the game, but with a factory in my backyard big enough to satisfy the needs of a small town but nobody except me being there is not the best concept on long term as I eventually will have worked my way through the research tree just to start asking myself "Why am I doing this and who is it for?"

And that's where "end consumers" would come in handy. If it's just sending all the crap off to space to be delivered home to Earth as a temporary solution (because everything else would be too sophisticated for now), or if there are settlers trying to get a permanent foothold on the planet by building a town/city or whatever is up to discussion but eventually the "I'm isolated and everything I am doing is just for myself" wears off because there is a predefined end to that gameplay when the Biters are no match anymore no matter the evolution factor and ultimatively when I launched the first rocket after which there is really nothing to do anymore.

I would rather have the game telling me "What? You are about to win? Well damn you! Here's another another 50 settlers building a new town, see if you can deal with that or are you considering to give up and retire?"

And that would be where the "beauty" and "aesthetics" effects of games like Industry Giant/Transport Giant/Cities Skylines/Sim City etc would kick in: You would actually have thriving settlements you'd be able to watch develop into a cities or whatever and which put you in front of logistics challenges.

I mean eventually you might get bored of that as well but theoretically you'd have a better reason to keep going until your computer breaks down because it can't handle the amount of information anymore. Better than sending a rocket to space and calling it a day.

[Koub]

I must admit most of what Medusalem wrote is very much like how I feel about the game. Nowadays, with the sandbox games fashion, there's a lot of "do whatever you want to keep yourself busy" in the gaming industry.

And recently, I have spotted what exactly felt wrong about that : at some point, there is a slow drift from devs creating endgame to players creating the endgame.
The same kind of drift I have noticed in some particularly moddable games, where always more game design is left to the community. I have played TESO, and the most thing we said about the game in my guild is "nope, but there's a mod for that".

I don't have that feeling too much with Factorio, but I do have the feeling "invent your own endgame".

[xad001x0w]

There is certainly something to be said for endgame fatigue and it is something that I find all ow/sandbox games suffer from eventually. It gets boring running around killing people in GTA once you have finished all the missions. It gets boring to sit staring at your C:SL city tick by once you've filled the map. It gets boring hoarding resources in Factorio once the tech tree is complete.

The reason for all of this is the lack of challenge.

If you take this right down to the psychological level, all the fun in any game is derived from challenge and crucially overcoming it, it makes us feel good about ourselves and releases endorphins. At a very basic level it is "haha game, you are no match for my superior strength, intelligence and dashing good looks".

The problem in Factorio is that once the tech tree is done, so is all the challenge. By that point you should be able to wage war against any biter raids, you should be able to travel around the map with ease and you should be able to largely produce any item you require near instantly.

So now that we understand what the problem is, how can we solve it in Factorio? At this point in development the core gameplay of Factorio is researching all items on the tech tree; there is no other goal. This goal is facilitated by a puzzle system and once each part of the puzzle is complete you are one step closer to completing the goal.

1) Make the existing challenges more challenging.
This is what a lot of the mods try to do, they don't really add more steps to the path, they just make the steps further apart. Increase the cost of some of the items on the tech tree, make it harder to amass the items you need to build them, make it harder to exist without being torn apart by biters. You can think of this option as a classic difficulty slider

2) Make more challenges.
This is what most people in this thread are discussing. On our path analogy, this is akin to adding more steps, make the tech tree have more things on it, make something to replace the tech tree once it's done, add arbitrary targets to achieve.

3) Recognise the end.
This sort of defeats the point of a sandbox game but it would satisfy our need for gratification. End the game once all items are researched - here are some graphs of what you did, here is a score, here is a leader-board with your name on it. This is sure to be an unpopular option but is basically how all RTS games work and is, if you think about it, basically what the devs originally intended and sort of what happens when you die anyway.

I think an important thing to remember is that the game cannot carry on forever, there has to be a point where it stops or ultimately the player will just get bored of it and stop it themselves.

I personally believe that the game needs a decisive end point, a point at which the game says "well done, you've finished. play again?". I think there is too much in the game industry at the moment going for this "un-ending" style of gameplay but the fact is it is simply not attainable. It is in my view far far better to have a sealed package of an experience to be able to see all four sides of rather than without.

I think that a lot of work needs to go on polish now, the UI could at best be described as "functional" and at worst "ugly and a mess", the tech tree is all over the place and doesn't offer any clear routes through it, the difficulty does not scale at all well at higher levels, the enemies are either zurg rush or mosquito on a wind-shield.

Having the rocket as an endgame object is the right thing to do but currently it is not implemented properly:
Imagine this, the further along the tech tree you are or perhaps the higher your current score (an internal calculated value dependant upon amount of resources, tech progress etc) the more agressive those biters/spitters/hoppers/burrowers/worms/flyers/behemoths/spidertrons become. More attacks, more numbers in those "raiding parties", smarter tactics. This means by the time you get to the rocket, the difficulty should have hopefully ramped up with you.

You load up the rocket, then when it's ready to launch you must go up to the rocket and get in ready to flee this horrible planet. When you click the "climb aboard" or "launch" button a dialog can pop up "are you sure?" clicking yes then creates a save point, the countdown begins and a huge scripted alien raid starts, you must wait out the final 30 seconds as aliens keep pouring against your defences and destroying your factory and you launch off. Game over. Graph screens, stats, score, leaderboard etc etc. Also a return to game button that reloads back at that previous save point and maybe sets a flag in the save game that marks it as a "finished" game meaning that you could chose to carry on as you can now, with simply a number of rockets launched score as before.

If you were to combine this, with a lot of polish to the GUI, and existing features as well as some feature expansions and a couple of new ones you have yourself a pretty damn fine game.

[jasa_m]

i just noticed this and im shocked... utterly...

why does rocket silo does not require modules????' IT IS SO FU**ING CHEAP NOW >-<