Oh gawd thank you, thats all i ever wanted to hear, raaaaaally it is, i was just never loved before by anyone even a little bit and so I make these outbursts and make up solid arguments about piracy and argue them in 24 hour marathons. Everyone was right about messilk wrote:It's not pity, it's pure selfishness. I think your opinion is good for this forum and for this game. But hard at the edges. With danger of deep fall.
EDIT: Pistols, ok, but I can shoot first?
Just saying that authorities who deal with death threats to groups of people generally don't have a sense of humor about it. You ever heard of the stories of kids who "joked" about there being a bomb at their schools? It's a dangerous game you're playing, "joking"(even if it's meant to be a joke, it's not really funny) about having to kill people who oppose you, and willing to die for your cause.malokin wrote:also: i like how you seem to have taken this as a serious death threat.Banala wrote:I think reactions like this will just put the FBI(/whatever equivalent where you're from) at your door in the middle of the nightmalokin wrote: I dont need your pity, PISTOLS AT DAWN!!
You have no humor, or you purposely misunderstand me.
*sigh* No TGS, it isnt an apt comparison, do you know what I;m gonna say yet.TGS wrote:Actually that is a very apt comparison. It is digital yes? It is media yes? You are now creating 'rules' to define in your mind what is and is not 'fair game'.malokin wrote:Now really, Do you really think that a person's personal photos are the same as a peice of music, a movie, or a video game??ssilk wrote:@malokin:
With respect to you person an in a very calm mode a simple example and a question:
If some good friend gives you photos from his holidays, and says "Look, isn't it nice?" then - with your logic - you put the photos into the internet. And when he asks you, what that should be you answered: "You gave me the photos and I could do with it what I want." And then he says "Oh, but it wasn't intended to put it on the internet", then you say "Yes, but it's my right to make that, because information is free". After a week he calls you: "My wife is now very upset, because we wanted to show our photos on our grillparty next week and now they saw it already. We canceled the party, sorry, but it's was your fault."
Are you willing to take the only logical consequences and then not longer put others photos on the internet?
Do you really think I am trying to create a giant archive of all the family photos of every human being in the world??
Your not making an apples to apples comparison, you are making a false equivalency.
Just to stop this pseudo-discussion/off topic:Banala wrote:Just saying that authorities who deal with death threats to groups of people generally don't have a sense of humor about it. You ever heard of the stories of kids who "joked" about there being a bomb at their schools? It's a dangerous game you're playing, "joking"(even if it's meant to be a joke, it's not really funny) about having to kill people who oppose you, and willing to die for your cause.
It's enough to put in a smiley or anything to make that clear.Oh i wasnt joking about that, i meant it.Banala wrote:Just saying that authorities who deal with death threats to groups of people generally don't have a sense of humor about it. You ever heard of the stories of kids who "joked" about there being a bomb at their schools? It's a dangerous game you're playing, "joking"(even if it's meant to be a joke, it's not really funny) about having to kill people who oppose you, and willing to die for your cause.
For fuck sake, Pistols at dawn is what two men used to yell when one of them lost an argument and wanted to settle the score with a duel.ssilk wrote:@malokin: It's that types of "jokes", which makes this discussion so difficult. Could you try to be a bit more serious? Please!?
Arghh...malokin wrote:i'm trying desperately NOT to be shocking until we all get a little mor comfortable with each other
Maybe the world and eventually Germany (my country) is not that far, as Kaya Yanar shortly stated in an interview... But if you want, that your afford in this thread is not wasted, you really want to be taken serious, you should. A bit. Please.Ya know the big problem with that ssilk, is it always ends up with someone having been too far even as decided to use, even go, want to do look more like?ssilk wrote:Arghh...
How big the parent company is doesn't really affect how morally justified I feel pirating said software. You are making the assumption that every pirated copy is a "sale denied" I think that logic is typical, yet flawed.darius456 wrote:Use Google translate... Polish -> English
Piracenie programów wielkich korporacji takich jak microsoft, autodesk, a nawet gier blizzard, czy ea jest w miarę usprawiedliwione. Ale okradanie twórców indywidualnych, lub małe firmy jest zwykłym zlodziejstwem. Chcesz grać w factorio kup je...
1 factorio = 1/4 battlefield 4 (no premium)
1 factorio = 1/7 battlefield 4 (premium)
Więc jest względnie tania....
Dziekuje dobranoc.
and of course some/most of this is my opinion. I hope I found everything new and don't offend anyone
For questions like this, sure we could ban the username or the ip or the email. The technical problem is that anyone that's slightly more than just computer literate can get around everyone one of these methods and simply create a new account. The practical issue is that, beyond the aggressive tones which I believe will mostly be contained in this topic and I believe is being toned down some (Thank You people), this is an issue that should be talked about and if you start banning people that state 'radical' opinions then you never have anything new added to the discussion.Can't we just ban him?
I do, it took time to create, though less, and has some value that another person might conceivably want. The actual difference is that most people wouldn't care about any specific photos, even for nude photographs (oh sure they'd make a splash at first but once it became common you'd just say so what. This might even lead to human beings being less critical of others because they are 'ugly' or fat and would certainly reduce the outrage about pornography).malokin wrote:Now really, Do you really think that a person's personal photos are the same as a peice of music, a movie, or a video game??
Actually a lot of them are if you can step back and look at it without the idea of it happening to real people (which cops can not do while on the job, it would risk lives to ignore the chance). That allah one was hilarious (woudn't want to risk doing it but funny as hell). Of course if it's an obscure or radically humorous joke then we can go back to the idea of nonverbal communication, most people won't understand that it's a joke. For those more obscure sayings that aren't jokes, perhaps link to something explaining itjokes that aren't funny
Actually I think malokin has said this before (when you look at everything together) but it is absolutely the clearest statement made thus farTGS wrote:This pretty much sums up this entire thread. Thank you malokin for finally getting to the point. Something I tried to get out of you over and over and over that you finally got to.malokin wrote:The assumption that a creator owns his works outside of any physical copy he keeps for himself is a dogma i will truly never understand.
Nice planmalokin wrote:i'm trying desperately NOT to be shocking until we all get a little mor comfortable with each other
Yes, it is the creator's job to find ways to sell their product (or to at least hire people that know how). It always has been, though there is the chance of appreciative customers marketing for you it should NOT be relied upon. Digital media allows FAR more methods of income than most people think about.alternative income with digital media
Morally there shouldn't be any difference, logically though a smaller company has less income/reserves to place towards development though you should see the above comment about alternative incomes...difference in company size and morality
I believe that if you have obtained possession of something legally (bought, given, etc.) you 'own' it and have the right to modify that product however you like (example if you bought the mona lisa you have the right to draw a mustache on it with a sharpie, would cause outrage from others but you have that right). The creators of that product have the right to sell it so as to make a profit over what they put into it, if people don't like or have no use for the product then it won't sell and the creators (assuming no other income) will 'starve', that's life. If you make a modification you are not allowed to sell that modification as something new unless it is sufficiently different because it would stall further progress (say you have a giant company that made a scalpel, a small company then takes that scalpel and improves it, the first company would likely not have enough money to continue development at their previous rate while the second company likely has less income than the first so it's not as if they can simply replace that company on a 1:1 scale). And this works quite well for physical products (at least until nanobots can duplicate anything you like for little to no cost but that's not here yet, though 3d printers might give some insights). For digital products however the problem is that when you 'give' something to someone else, unless you delete it from your drive afterwards, you are only giving them a copy, meaning you don't have to go and buy that product again after giving it away so only one person would ever have to buy that product which would not come anywhere close to the development costs. It's also relatively easy to modify and resell products and very difficult to prevent (or enforce). Which is where licensing really comes in, when you buy something you must first agree that you will only use it as the developers want you to (usually no reverse engineering to prevent you from taking developments and selling it as theirs), if you do not agree to that then you are legally bound NOT to buy the product. Now the problem is that people do not READ the agreement, they just say whatever and buy it, instead of saying NO I do not agree to these terms and FORCING the creator to revise the license to something people are willing to agree with. Which is where pirates come in, since people do not force the companies to use agreeable agreements the pirates give, those very few people that actually read and refuse the agreements, the ability to use the product without restriction.ownership
It's IMO off-topic, but malokin is using it as supporting argument, why pirating is OK, so here is my reaction.FreeER wrote: ...
also malokin is right that the cost of digital products is far less than that of other products, in fact the only real cost is what it costs the creators to live (food, shelter, etc.) while creating it and the cost of the hardware (which most people already have!). There are free OSs and free IDEs (even better than just notepad and a compiler) though they might not always be as good as the commercial versions, most are however open source so you are capable of improving them yourself (if someone else doesn't do so before hand).
. Digging holes also costs only food, shelter and few other necessities. You can use shovel (which most people already have!), or you can use bare hands (which even more people already have! 
) Yes, excavator might be handy, but if you do not have money for it, no worries, you can improve your shovel yourself and make a motor-shovel...Robik wrote: Nope, he is not right. Cost of the product does not depend on its physical or digital nature, it depends on the cost to produce it
you think that you can start a profitably company doing digging or excavation without a backhoe? Uh... I think the techniques you discuss with a shovel or your hands are really naively unrealistic. It seems to me you would have to be really desperate to prove a point if you can do those kinds of mental gymnastics. How about my comments that it is unrealistic for a new company to make money in the first 3 years, or that any company should expect to see ANY revenue until after the product is done, released, and distributed to stores. That means you have to sink ENORMOUS costs into a project without knowing if it will work or not. Where are the molds and the time to create them in your equation? Where is the costs of the people and machines that have to put thousands of hours of wear and tear onto a product to test it? The marketing hours. The trucker driving that product to the store or direct to the home. All of those costs determine what the TOTAL cost for the consumer of a product will be.Physical product X costs 10kg of steel and 10 man-hours to make
Digital product Y costs 0 kg of steel and 12 man-hours to make
Let's say that cost of 10kg of steel = 1 man-hour, result is that Y costs more to produce than X.
Well now, what if you are digging MILES of sewer tunnels? Sure you could use a shovel and assuming it never breaks it would require (off the top of my head) THOUSANDS of man hours for a large city. Then compare it to using a motor-shovel and you can easily cut the time down to hundreds of man hours which is much much less expensive even when factoring for the cost of the motor-shovels (which can be resold at the end, presumably). Don't forget to factor in the cost of planning, reinforcements, transport and storage of excavated dirt, transport of workers, , and the investigators (the term escapes me at the moment) to check the integrity of each tunnel. Oh and you are almost entirely dependent on someone to get you the materials that you need to work with (and those prices can change, or the government could outlaw them entirely in certain circumstances). Sure you could do it with a single person and a shovel (or bare hands) but it is by no means PRACTICAL, ever.Robik wrote:Yes, excavator might be handy, but if you do not have money for it, no worries, you can improve your shovel yourself and make a motor-shovel...
Of course you can make a successful small business that digs holes without a backhoe, did you used a backhoe for every hole you need to dig in you life? For smaller works, backhoe is not efficient to use, and there are cases where you cannot use it (space constraints for example). You seem to think that every business has to be a factory or something, not true. There are plenty of business opportunities in providing physical goods and services on small scale, which single person can do.malokin wrote:
That was an example, do you really expect from me to list entire list of all costs for imaginary products X and Y? It is not necessary, all costs but man-hours were just summed in steel for simplicity. It does not render the example invalid. You can argue that for Y, the amount of needed 'steel' should be bigger that 0. I will give you that if you want to shoot yourself in the foot with it - as it was you who argued that only man-hours are needed for digital products.malokin wrote: Where are the molds and the time to create them in your equation? Where is the costs of the people and machines that have to put thousands of hours of wear and tear onto a product to test it? The marketing hours. The trucker driving that product to the store or direct to the home. All of those costs determine what the TOTAL cost for the consumer of a product will be.
Yeah, Your ignoring that in the real world all physical products require SEVERAL extra factors, not just one. 4 men cannot EVER design, manufacture, and distribute a physical product to the world without investing millions of dollars........
Bullshit, you cannot make generalization like that! It is true in some cases and not true in other cases.malokin wrote:..., but the total man hours from product conception to launch of digital products is EXPONENTIALLY less than what it takes for a team of hundreds maybe thousands of people that must work together to release a physical tangible good.
I think the real point against this is that a digital good can go to hundreds or thousands of people once made very quickly, whereas with physical goods you must first remake that item x amount of times and ship it to each person individually and each good shipped has both the cost of base manufacturing and shipment cost attached to it, neither of which a digital good has. So to sum it up even small indie niche software (factorio has 817 registered members on the forum and probably more sold copies than that) can reach more people for less money faster than any physical good ever could whether a small one-person sweater operation or a factory.Robik wrote:To sum it up, you are always comparing small indie niche software against complex or large scale factory product. Try to compare some complex software, for banks / aerospace industry for example, against hand-made sweater.
Yeah, I would dig sewers bare handed only if severely boredFreeER wrote:Well now, what if you are digging MILES of sewer tunnels? Sure you could do it with a single person and a shovel (or bare hands) but it is by no means PRACTICAL, ever.Robik wrote:Yes, excavator might be handy, but if you do not have money for it, no worries, you can improve your shovel yourself and make a motor-shovel...
You are comparing a product where you need to do X, Y and Z to be able to sell it against a product where you need to do only X. There are cases where you need to do X, Y, and Z to be able to sell digital product and where you need to do only X to sell physical products. In other words, you are comparing indie game against car, I can compare complex software against hand-made sweater.FreeER wrote:However, that's a SERVICE (digging holes/tunnels) not a PRODUCT (the tools to dig a hole with). With a product you also have to transport your product, which can be pennies if it's not going far to hundreds or thousands of dollars depending on weight, international tariffs, paying off officials (don't say it doesn't happen lol though you can leave it off if you like). And you also have to have it tested and approved by a government (or more) to be able to sell it. Digital products have practically 0 transport cost, though you used to need to buy and have a disk delivered, now if you can get to the website to order it you can download it for no additional cost, and any testing can be done for free by numerous third parties (not to mention with automated software, though it's less accurate) or forgone completely and simply state that it's up to the customer to bear any risks (legally).
Nope, there are differences between costs of various products, if it is digital or not has nothing to do with itFreeER wrote:...but it's a major difference between costs of manufacturing Physical products and manufacturing Digital products.
Really? You can advertise shit out of a car, you can pay for use of that car in some film, you can sell sequel of a car with relatively few changes, you can sell accessories for that car and you can make merchandise for that car, models, calendars etc... manufacturers even get paid from software companies if they want to use that car in a game)FreeER wrote:Then factor in the different ways to make money on those products. With Physical products you sell it to people. That's it there's really not much more you can do. With Digital you can sell it, there are numerous ways to embed advertisements, create and sell additional content, sequels (even with relatively little NEW content), add micro-transactions, and create physical merchandise, hm that's off the top of my head and I haven't really researched income via digital mediums so there are likely more.
Yes, delivery of digital product is very fast and you can make additional copies for very small added cost.FreeER wrote:I think the real point against this is that a digital good can go to hundreds or thousands of people once made very quickly, whereas with physical goods you must first remake that item x amount of times and ship it to each person individually and each good shipped has both the cost of base manufacturing and shipment cost attached to it, neither of which a digital good has. So to sum it up even small indie niche software (factorio has 817 registered members on the forum and probably more sold copies than that) can reach more people for less money faster than any physical good ever could whether a small one-person sweater operation or a factory.
