Factorio Forums

TL;DR:
There is no reason to actually build anything when starting a new game. The end goal (rocket facility/space station) is not palpable at that point, yet it is the only ingame reason to start crafting/mining/building anything. Early game motivation is needed to suck in especially (but not only!) new players, so they start building stuff and get into the loop of building and expanding that is the strength of this game. I'd like to discuss ways to force players to start building, without them feeling constantly under stress, while changing as little as possible about the mid/late game.
End of TL;DR.


To make my point, let me compare my early game experiance in Factorio to Minecraft survival mode. In MC, right from the start, you need food and shelter to live. These are the basic motivators to start doing anything. Starting from those, you'll spend the next 5-10 hours building a house/cave, making tools and weapons, hunting animals, planting crops, and so on. Once you have the basics established, you know how things work and start doing stuff just for the sake of it. The game has given you an easy entrance by motivating you to do easy little things in the beginning that open up the world, but don't matter much later on.

In Factorio, you can start a map and leave the PC running for any amount of hours. It'll be fine. Any external threats only occur, once you start building things that pollute the air. This I find interesting; in MC you build stuff to keep threats at bay. In Factorio, the building of stuff is what actually causes the threats to appear. Good mechanic for balancing enemies early vs late game, just seems a little backwards.


The end goal, as currently implemented, is obviously not satisfying at all and we don't need to talk much about it. But imo even the new and improved version of building stuff in space to rescue people, while a lot cooler, does not do anything to motivate the player early on. If you completely break it down, it's still just: I need to research all technology and get tons of ressources, then I win! I guess I'd compare that to "the end" in Minecraft, where you slay the dragon; It's fun to do once you have been playing for 20 hours or so, but before that you don't care about it.


I do have some ideas on how to change this up, but they are pretty much just taken 1:1 from Minecrafts survival mode. That's why I'm asking for your ideas and thoughts as much as for feedback on these ideas:

• 1) Have roaming biters. Single, or very small groups of biters that randomly start roaming the map from a nest. Maybe just have them travel from one nest to another. That way a player would at least have to manufacture ammo for their pistol.
  2) Have the player need food. It should, of course, be possible to automate food production. Maybe just dead biter bodies grilled in a furnace for the beginning. That way, you'll need to go out hunting for the roamers early. As for automation, the gathering of biter carcasses could be automated via robots or transport belts in range of turrets (kind of morbid I guess ). Maybe later in the tech-tree, you get a farm that produces food just by being placed on green grass.

An interesting addition to 2) would be to have the civilians in the space ship need sustinance too. They'd have enough for a few hours in the beginning. Then, once you researched some necessary stuff, you can send unmanned drones to replenish their supplies.


So what do you guys think? Is this even a problem? If so, what might the solution be?


Disclaimer: I'm only talking about freeplay, not the campaign. Also, while I am suggesting some ideas, the thread is mostly about discussing whether others perceive the same issue I do and have ideas to "fix" it, which is why I am opening it under general discussion.

I can't really relate to this at all. I tried the campaign once as an afterthought, but the Freeplay is where I spend 99.99% of my Factorio time.

My early game motivation was having seen the trailer for the game, witnessed what was possible to do, and then went ahead and spent money on it.
From this, I had both expectations and investment.

Upon launching a new game, I knew what the game was about and started doing it. My motivation didn't come from the peacefulness, the enemies, or any sort of urgency. In this game about building automated factories I wanted to build an automated factory, and thus started doing so. Then all the natural flow of game took me all the way til the end.

I realized that there were things I could do better, so I started over. Then when my factory was done, I realized once more there were things I could do differently, and started over once more.

...and so the cycle has continued for the last 8 playthroughs.
This game, man. This game...

lancar wrote:I can't really relate to this at all. I tried the campaign once as an afterthought, but the Freeplay is where I spend 99.99% of my Factorio time.

My early game motivation was having seen the trailer for the game, witnessed what was possible to do, and then went ahead and spent money on it.
From this, I had both expectations and investment.

Upon launching a new game, I knew what the game was about and started doing it. My motivation didn't come from the peacefulness, the enemies, or any sort of urgency. In this game about building automated factories I wanted to build an automated factory, and thus started doing so. Then all the natural flow of game took me all the way til the end.

I realized that there were things I could do better, so I started over. Then when my factory was done, I realized once more there were things I could do differently, and started over once more.

...and so the cycle has continued for the last 8 playthroughs.
This game, man. This game...

I get what you're saying... My first game went pretty much as yours did. After watching the trailer and playing the demo there was no question what to do. I am also on my 4th (5th? not sure any more...) freeplay run right now and it's going great. BUT: every time I've started a new map after the very first one I had to get over a hump where I felt like it is all pointless. I've never had that in other games that hit a similar vein for me (say anno 2070 or minecraft), so I guess I am just trying to spot the difference?

Between playing the campaign - and yes, I did play through the campaign - and lots of real games, I learned to anticipate that even if I wasn't seeing biters now, I would eventually, and I wanted decent defenses before they showed up. I had a terrible time with the campaign before I learned to focus on gun turrets and automated ammunition construction.

I really don't want additional pressure in the early game. One of the worst things about playing a game with the Marathon and Resource Spawner mods was that got killed repeatedly by early packs of biters, which show up before you can really build up any kind of defenses. I loved the overall feel of the changes, but I got so frustrated by dying or taking major damage to what I'd built that I nearly gave up at least twice. Only once I got clusters of turrets up did the pressure ease up.

The campaign provides explicit goals in each scenario. Going through the campaign teaches you about research and the importance of getting basic electricity up. Once you've learned that lesson, in the real game your early focus is on getting automated Red research up, and from then on progressive science pack demand ends up driving everything else.

Gus_Smedstad wrote:Between playing the campaign - and yes, I did play through the campaign - and lots of real games, I learned to anticipate that even if I wasn't seeing biters now, I would eventually, and I wanted decent defenses before they showed up. I had a terrible time with the campaign before I learned to focus on gun turrets and automated ammunition construction.

I really don't want additional pressure in the early game. One of the worst things about playing a game with the Marathon and Resource Spawner mods was that got killed repeatedly by early packs of biters, which show up before you can really build up any kind of defenses. I loved the overall feel of the changes, but I got so frustrated by dying or taking major damage to what I'd built that I nearly gave up at least twice. Only once I got clusters of turrets up did the pressure ease up.

The campaign provides explicit goals in each scenario. Going through the campaign teaches you about research and the importance of getting basic electricity up. Once you've learned that lesson, in the real game your early focus is on getting automated Red research up, and from then on progressive science pack demand ends up driving everything else.

Ok, so I have not played with mods before and I also stopped the campaign when I got to the mission where you have to destroy a bunch of biter hives with limited ressources. So I can't say much about that.

In vanilla freeplay however, I don't think biters ever attack unless you build something that pollutes an area close to a nest. So if your top priority was to stay safe from biters, technically your best course of action would be to do nothing at all.

Also, my idea about roaming biters is not to be directly threatening you - actually, a single one per "pack" would be enough to do what I'd hope them to do. They are only supposed to force the player to eventually get their hands on more ammunition. If balanced correctly, they should always be easily disposed of with just the starting pistol, as long as you have ammo.

The thing about science pack demand driving everything else works for now, but it feels like research for the sake of research. If you don't already have an interest in doing research, there is no reason to start. What would, IMO, be better is if researched technologies helped to keep you alive which would give you a clear motivation from the start. (I know military research helps keep you alive, but only once you already got the biters' attention by building stuff)

Wutz wrote:TL;DR:
There is no reason to actually build anything when starting a new game. The end goal (rocket facility/space station) is not palpable at that point, yet it is the only ingame reason to start crafting/mining/building anything. Early game motivation is needed to suck in especially (but not only!) new players, so they start building stuff and get into the loop of building and expanding that is the strength of this game. I'd like to discuss ways to force players to start building, without them feeling constantly under stress, while changing as little as possible about the mid/late game.
End of TL;DR.

As I've pointed out a few times before, in YouTube video comments and in the UnOfficial FAQ that I've started, there are three goals in Factorio (in order):

1. Automate the production of science packs.
2. Defend your base.
3. Launch the Rocket+Sattelite.

So it seems to me that the immediate goal for the player is to automate the red magic science potions, something that's fairly achievable. After that the green ones, then do Oil, then the blue ones.

So there's no need to "force" the player to do anything. But you may have a point in that it's not made sufficiently clear to the player that he must automate science potions. The early demo/campaign maps don't show that by example, and I haven't played the later ones.

@Peter34 like to add some more to your list

4. mack the bigs facto thay can.
5. mack the bigs pollution thay can(i like this one).
6 and 7 mack the samll one of 4 and 5.
8 look at all the post in Show your Creations. all them posts can get you to do some think new because you did not no you can do that

as for food and o2 thre are lost of post on this and some mod that add this to the game. but would l like to see it in the game may be but in a way that fits the game. i think this is got to be bast on what we/devs think the teck level of were he/it come from? maybe a refull a in game week?

Wutz wrote: it feels like research for the sake of research.

But it's not research for the sake of research. It's research to win the game.

The campaign walks you through it, but even if you start with free play, the very first dialog you get is "your task is to launch a rocket to explore space. You will need to research advanced technologies to unlock the Rocket Silo." There it is, spelled out. All the motivation the player needs to conduct research, right there.

Seriously, I think this is not really a problem for new players. I think you're imagining it's a problem for new players, but that's not really been what anyone in this thread has experienced.

More early biters are just bad for new players. When I first started playing, I hated everything about the biters, because they interrupted me when I was trying to learn the absolute basics. Instead of "motivating" new players, a more likely result is that they'll drop it and never come back.

Because let's face it, combat sucks in Factorio. The biters are way too fast to make it anything like enjoyable.

Ok, apparently I've been posting on a non issue. That's fine, if I'm the only one feeling like this then it's clearly my problem. Not a big one I might add - I still love the game and have put at least 100 hours in by now.

Gus_Smedstad wrote: But it's not research for the sake of research. It's research to win the game.

The campaign walks you through it, but even if you start with free play, the very first dialog you get is "your task is to launch a rocket to explore space. You will need to research advanced technologies to unlock the Rocket Silo." There it is, spelled out. All the motivation the player needs to conduct research, right there.

For me personally, once I'd done it in my very first map after 50 hours of play... I never cared about winning the game again. Just like I don't really care about the end boss in Minecraft. It's just not a strong motivation to me at all. Sure, I can start a new map with a specific goal in mind. My current map, for example, I set out to have individual factories for every single line of products that would be supplied with material by trains. The obvious goal/motivation there was to research train stuff.
But if I've been out of the game for a few months and start a new map, I still know that i don't want to win the game. Yet I have no specific plans for my factory. And at that point, it IS research for the sake of research. If the research helped me to survive in some way, it would at least add to whatever my own motivation is.

Gus_Smedstad wrote: Seriously, I think this is not really a problem for new players. I think you're imagining it's a problem for new players, but that's not really been what anyone in this thread has experienced.

Definitely correct. I thought about it after reading the first reply to my OP... turns out this wasn't a problem at all during my first playthrough. More of a thing that surfaced later.

Gus_Smedstad wrote: More early biters are just bad for new players. When I first started playing, I hated everything about the biters, because they interrupted me when I was trying to learn the absolute basics. Instead of "motivating" new players, a more likely result is that they'll drop it and never come back.

Because let's face it, combat sucks in Factorio. The biters are way too fast to make it anything like enjoyable.

Agreed. I've introduced two friends to the game and at least one of them was annoyed by the biters when they first attacked after a few hours of play, because he was still learning the mechanics.

That being said, the ideas about roaming biters and food where an afterthought that I added as examples. I guess that was a mistake. I really didn't want the thread to be focused on it.

Wutz wrote:For me personally, once I'd done it in my very first map after 50 hours of play... I never cared about winning the game again.

You say that you have no motivation to continue playing and yet you are still here and are clearly still restarting on new maps. I don't think that even you have a problem with the problem you're describing.

Wutz wrote: But if I've been out of the game for a few months and start a new map, I still know that i don't want to win the game. Yet I have no specific plans for my factory. And at that point, it IS research for the sake of research.

You're describing a problem that's specific to how you feel about the game, not a general problem. You start a game, you don't want to launch a satellite, and you don't have any other goals. You want us to provide you with a motivation to play the game. The stuff about "early game motivation" is really about motivation in general, because if you did have any long term goal - and lots of players set themselves goals unrelated to the rocket launch - the early game motivation follows. Early game research is only "research for the sake of research" as you keep repeating if you don't actually want to play.

Personally, when I feel that way about a game, I set it aside. I stopped playing for about a year between 0.9 and 0.12. Then when I finished 0.12, I installed a couple of mods that drastically changed the flavor of the game and played to launch a rocket, which proved to be a lot of fun because the challenges of the mods were new to me. After that, I set it aside again, though I fully intend to try another major mod like Bob's Mods at some point in the future.

This is interesting, I had some month ago also three or four games, where I brought me to a point, where I thought: Everything useless. All the same shit.

I analysed it.

It was always, when I tried without goal. A real, far away, end-goal. The problem with the game is, that the goals must rise with your knowledge.

My current goal: Create a world, where every item (or item-group, like belts, chests, capsules etc.) is crafted in it's own factory. Every factory should be about 1 km away from the next factory. The transport between the factories is with trains, there should be some simple communication, that I don't overproduce the resources (because that would lead to jamming stores). In the end I should be able to craft some satellites per hour.

I never had that much fun.

For the game this means: There should be something, that gives us such goals. In whatever form, either simple tasks and you solve a lot of them or big tasks like colonizing the planet. Or both.

ssilk wrote:Every factory should be about 1 km away from the next factory.

How do you measure this? I've never noticed any way of determining distances, or translating that to meters. Is this a console command, a mod, or do you just decide that X distance in the map view qualifies?

A tile is defined as one meter. Look in the wiki about units. It's the same as in minecraft...

So 1 kilometer is 1000 meter is 1000 times is about 34 chunks. A chunk is 32x32 tiles. It can be seen in the map, when you turn on the pollution view or the radar reveals one more piece of map.

That's a long way. The specialized factories connected by trains thing is interesting, but it's completely impractical for a number of reasons for most of the game. The most obvious one being that you can't do it until you have train technology, but given the huge amount of land you have to clear, I'd expect you'd need to get to laser turrets before you can even start. I halfway expect you might even get to the end of the tech tree by the time you've made even the first steps towards converting your standard factory into separate, distant modules.

I'd think to make it really work, you'd need another goal on top of the modular factory goal. The modules have to build something right? So maybe the idea is to launch a rocket, but you can't start building the rocket parts until you've done the re-organization to widely separated factory segments. So no construction of things like low-density structure or rocket control modules until the conversion is complete.

Not exactly, but about that's my plan.

I have finished all research some time ago, only the rocket science is left.
Without any help you can get it's not possible to built this. I use many mods.

For example: You need an incredible amount of space. I calculated with about 30 or 40 km^2 .The clearing of the nests is done by a modified warefare mod. Artillery-like it is blasting everything away. (I need to fix it, that it doesn't take so much CPU).

I also use the boxing mod, cause otherwise I would need factor 100 more items running around, which takes much too much cpu.

(What I currently need is a "radio-combinator", where a sender transmits the wires over (endless) distances to a receiver combinator. I need it to control the mines, cause too much resources is in this scenario as bad as too less. It's so boring to drag red wires over 3 kilometers. And then the biters destroy a pole and you have no connection anymore... )

The amazing thing would be to have that radio-combinator using the satellites in the rocket. You send 1 rocket, you get 1 signal frecuency and you have wireless circuit network for that signal everywhere. That would make an use of the rockets sent.

Chess wrote:The amazing thing would be to have that radio-combinator using the satellites in the rocket. You send 1 rocket, you get 1 signal frecuency and you have wireless circuit network for that signal everywhere. That would make an use of the rockets sent.

1) I love this Idea

2) am I the only person that normally over-builds, and gets totally destroyed by WAVES of biters from some rather large bases, because I didn't make ANY turrets until like four or five hours in, when it's to late to keep up?

3) I like to try to make myself seperate EVERYTHING out, to the point of I have entire train stops dedicated to nothing but ore storage. Makes for a very interesting train network, especially with Bob's, Smart Trains, Rail Tanker, and Logistics Wagons