Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by johanwanderer » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:04 pm

ratchetfreak wrote:
chris13524 wrote:
Don't think there is something exotic like a quadcopter needed.
For emergency transport, I agree, a quadcopter would not make sence. I was talking about more regular transport such as building with blueprints out in the wilderness. Or supplying repair packs to outposts.
isn't that bots already? I mean yeah they don't look like quadcopters but for all intents and purposes they are.
So do we make fuel-based bots? That would be cool if there are bots that burns solid fuel and travel a really long distance. This doesn't work with one of the original requirement (namely, fast) but I guess the bot's speed could be increased.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by Takezu » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:53 pm

Well i'm aware that it wasn't meant for emergencys.
It would fullfill the same role as the MTH which i find more fitting to the game then an exotic quadcopter.
Thats why i said that.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:44 pm

This wouldn't be quite like a logistic bot. Due too logistic bots having to be inside a logistic network, they cannot travel to remote locations (or far a way areas in base) fast enough. The idea would be that this would extend the bots capabilities to areas outside the logistic network. Hence the mothership of bots. It would carry an army (a stack or two) of bots along with some stacks of items for remote placement or transport, nothing worth making a train for. If programmed correctly, it could supply building materials quicker to remote parts of the base too far away for a million logistic bots to make their journey. I always hate it when I build a blueprint really far away (in the logistic network) and bots grab resources, then try to fly to the build location, but the ghost disappears before the bots can get there.

It would also build things outside the logistic network, such as a mining outpost. You might place some blueprints for a wall and then a quadcopter is loaded up and flys (with the jet engine so it goes really fast) to the remote location outside the base to build whatever you want it to build. This might have a quirk of not knowing what network to take the items from though.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:53 pm

@Takezu A helicopter or chinook could do the same thing as a quadcopter, I just thought a quadcopter would look cooler and fit more with the factory style.

If it was a chinook, it would make sense that it carries a lot of stuff, I believe they can carry tanks right? Not really the low amount of items sort of thing.

A hilocopter doesn't go that fast although I guess you could put rocket propulsion on it, but that wouldn't be very stable.

A Google search of jet propelled quadcopter makes me thing it would be cooler to have 4 jet engines instead of propellers, although that removes the whole electricity and fuel idea. My original idea was to have 4 propellers stabilizing the copter and then have a jet engine in the back for speed.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:00 pm

But nothing thats based on electrical energy, that would far to easy, just build enough solars and accus and transportation has no meaning at all.
Yes, I agree that it would be easy, that is why I suggested having electric propellers and then a jet engine (running on fuel) to make it move really fast for long distance transport. The electricity would be used to keep it in the air and allow for long hovering times with a good charge.

I didn't mention it before, but to charge, it would have to sit on the pad for a while so that it can charge (every second adding a percentage to the battery or something), not like the logistic bots where they get fully charged in half a second.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by bobucles » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:28 pm

So a long range transport that hands small goods to resupply a base? That sounds exactly like something for an emergency transport! If an outpost runs out of repair packs or something just pay the tax and have an emergency supply system handle it. A permanent flying transport is more for delivering bulk goods, which trains already take care of.

Logistic drones are great for hauling some goods a moderate distance, but they struggle with long range resupply. Train stations can't create logistic demands, and trains aren't smart enough to respond to them. Perhaps combinators will change that, but an emergency transport could also take care of it.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:46 pm

So a long range transport that hands small goods to resupply a base? That sounds exactly like something for an emergency transport!
Running out of repair packs is not an emergency, it will keep happening over and over again. You need a continues supply of them.
A permanent flying transport is more for delivering bulk goods, which trains already take care of.
We are not talking about bulk goods, we need something quick, and that carries a small amount of items. Trains are slow and carry a lot of items.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by johanwanderer » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:20 pm

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but what about the internet and a (fast) 3-d printer?

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by bobucles » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:57 pm

Running out of repair packs is not an emergency, it will keep happening over and over again. You need a continues supply of them.
If you KNOW that repair packs will run out and require a regular supply, why not deliver them with your regular train shipment? They're kind of made for that.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:23 pm

@johanwanderer That would require providing the 3D printer with plastic, which I guess could work. Then you could 3D print ores or something, cool idea though :)

@bobucles I thought about that, having a train car in each train dedicated for supplying random items to outposts. I might have to do that in my next base.

We are trying to find something that matches these criteria:
So what we are talking here about?
- Transport of items
- Over large distances (in general over 500 tiles, up to 10.000 or more)
- Small amount of items (hundrets, maybe 1000, eventually 5000 (one chest))
- Very, very fast (transport should not take longer than a minute, from request to delivery)
- Very fine control of what is transported. Because you cannot transport much items, you need to control the item types or the flow or whatever. This control is difficult and I don't want to mix this up with questions about how this connection is built with circuit network, because it doesn't make sense to connect an outpost by circuit network over 5.000 tiles (To built the connection you need currently minimum 1 hour - and this is needed for every outpost). An idea about this type of transport should also include how to transport this information.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by bobucles » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:00 pm

I thought about that, having a train car in each train dedicated for supplying random items to outposts.
It doesn't even need to be a full train car. What does an outpost need? Repair packs, new turrets, new walls, and maybe new construction/logistic drones? Two slots for packs and 1 slot for the rest, that's 6 slots of each train for a permanent supply. Alternatively you could have dedicated supply trains that fill up at a special home station, and hit all the outposts on their rounds. A few single car trains can supply everything no problem.

Your outpost doesn't even need another train stop if you use smart inserters. Use one output, filter it for support items, and cap the number of items so the station doesn't get greedy. Feed the roboport with drones and repair packs the same way. And then make a blueprint so you never have to think about it again. ;)

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:20 pm

Yeah, that is a good idea, but we still need another type of transport, good for emergencies and delivering small amounts of items.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by Klonan » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:43 pm

Rockets can send small amounts of times. A automatic request system could call down a supply rocket or supply drop when its needed. A regular rocket could be loaded with only the items they have used between the last supply drop. It would be a industrial challenge to produce large numbers of initial rockets and a supply launch system, so in terms of long term gameplay it has a lot of potential.

I think lots of peoples ideas are becoming a single entity system, one initial investment for access to the transportation system. But factorio is about mass production, and nothing is cooler than mass producing ROCKETS.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:41 am

@Klonan I think your idea has a lot of potential. Once players get the space platform set up, they could start sending rockets around. I still think it would be more of the emergency to drop supplies down as it doesn't make sense to be sending rockets into space and back down to earth.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by Klonan » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:17 am

chris13524 wrote:@Klonan I think your idea has a lot of potential. Once players get the space platform set up, they could start sending rockets around. I still think it would be more of the emergency to drop supplies down as it doesn't make sense to be sending rockets into space and back down to earth.

It makes sense if it makes gameplay sense... I mean we dont do it here on earth because the cost is very large, but the game doesnt have to abide by the contraints of our human technology. It makes sense, with the level of technology of this game, that a rocket could land, deliver payload, re-launch and rendezvous with a station.

But still, it doesnt have to be in emercencies only. The supply drop could be just a small one use rocket from orbit. It lands, fulfills the item requests, and then is discarded.

This isnt really about what makes sense, But what makes for enjoyable gameplay.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:17 pm

There are two words, realistic, sense. I think that anything in Factorio should make sense, but not necessarily be realistic. It's the idea that something like that "could" happen. In most Hollywood action spy movies, if someone parachutes down onto a building and then makes a hole in the celling with a laser, it's not realistic, lasers can't cut through 6 inches of steel in half a second, but it makes sense.

So I am thinking that rockets would be more of a one time use thing because when people hear rocket, they think, missile, moon landing, etc. None of that is hardly multi-use. Yes, there is the space shuttle, but it requires a ton of maintenance after each landing (and still requires a rocket to get it into space). If we were to get some sort of multi-use rocket, it should be called something else and look different from a rocket.

This is the kind of rocket I think of: https://www.google.com/search?q=rocket& ... 20&bih=951. You can't re-land it. The rocket splits apart and the tiny landing part lands on the ground. The rest of the rocket is destroyed.
It makes sense if it makes gameplay sense... I mean we dont do it here on earth because the cost is very large, but the game doesnt have to abide by the contraints of our human technology. It makes sense, with the level of technology of this game, that a rocket could land, deliver payload, re-launch and rendezvous with a station.
Yes, it quite very well makes sense for this level of technology to be able to re-do it's stuff, but I don't think it would be very acceptable to players.

What would this rocket look like? It can't be the kind in the Google Images because they don't do that. It would have to be more of a shuttle thing.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by Klonan » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:11 pm

chris13524 wrote:
So I am thinking that rockets would be more of a one time use thing because when people hear rocket, they think, missile, moon landing, etc. None of that is hardly multi-use. Yes, there is the space shuttle, but it requires a ton of maintenance after each landing (and still requires a rocket to get it into space). If we were to get some sort of multi-use rocket, it should be called something else and look different from a rocket.
Well yes, rockets could be single use. But that doesn't mean a rocket should only be used in emergencies. Even here on earth, we use rockets for mundane tasks such as re-supplying stations. In the game it will be interesting to set up automated rocket launches to far off outposts, for regular resupply. And also setting up automated launched from the base to supply orbital stations with necessary materials.

Of course they can still be used in emergencies. But the fun of a transport system is in its long term upkeep and automation.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:03 pm

Well yes, rockets could be single use. But that doesn't mean a rocket should only be used in emergencies.
Of course, they could be regular use, but they could be geared more toward emergencies. Logistic bots aren't made to carry 50k iron ore around your base, but you still can do it, and some people do. They are instead used for moving a few items around and building things. Rockets could work similar, due too the price and low inventories, they would probably be used more for delivering during emergencies (when I say emergencies, I mean rare). Likewise, due to a quadcopter being so low too the ground, it wouldn't be good in emergencies because a spitter could destroy one with a few shots.

I am not trying to argue, I just think that rockets would make more sense for emergencies. Maybe we need to put a stawpoll in /r/factorio for deciding some of these things. See what the community thinks?

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by bobucles » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:52 pm

Disposable rockets would be suitable for the job of a magic transport. If the dev is planning a space layer, then it would make good interaction between the layers. Fly the resources up to space, and drop them down wherever. It would service both the transport of goods and act as a way to "teleport" the player around a colossal map. If the space layer makes unique resources then it may be the only way to get certain goods.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by ssilk » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:13 pm

For me it is clear:
- In the beginning the rockets are very small, not reusable
- Then they get bigger and bigger, can driver faster, more transport
- And then the rockets get reuseable.

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