Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by ssilk » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:53 am

vampiricdust wrote: I don't get why you want something so overpowered but yet so restrictive it's not really something you'll want to use much.
Cool, that is what I want. A very powerful transport, that can decide between live and death. :)

In PvP it's a game changer, if you can resupply fast enough. It enables also new type of storytelling. You can built an complete outpost within minutes instead of hours. You can use it as base technology of self replicating factories.

It just makes everything more interesting and introduces a big factor of surprise into players possibilities.
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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by SHiRKiT » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:08 pm

Klonan wrote:How about this.

You build a big BIG cool looking rocket in the base, not a military rocket, a SPACE ROCKET

which you fill up with JUNK (whatever you want) and send it to space.

Later on down the line, you're chillin out somewhere far away, and you're like, "darn i need some junk"

So you place a rocket beacon chest thing, open it up, use logistics menu type thing to request some junk (on the side it could show a list of available stuff), after putting in your order, hit 'REQUEST' or 'ACTIVATE BEACON' button, rocket in space starts its descent.

The beacon gives an ETA based upon time of day and position in orbit (just a rather random amount of time between 45 and 180 seconds or whatever)

Times up, rockets lands, ON THE BEACON, dumps all the junk you wanted into the chest. Then if you got a high class rocket with advanced highly expensive rocket engines and other technology your rocket can take-off again and go back to space.

If you got a low-class burner rocket it can just self-sacrifice after landing.

If you're really down on money, call in an orbital drop crate, lands on the beacon with parachutes, junk = delivered.

But the main point im getting at, is that it isnt just, request stuff and stuff is delivered instantly. Its, think about what you might need. Invest in rockets to place what you need into orbit. and only then, can you 'instantly' call down a rocket full of junk.

Its nothing like random magic teleportation. Its a realistic, gameplay driven mechanic, designed to allow long range delivery, with an appropriate investment cost.

Rockets aren't free.
Rockets aren't instant.

But Rockets are Cool.
I totally agree with this, it's like if the ISS send stuff to us. The the main point here is that something like this would be partially in-game with the new in-game rocket launching into orbit mechanics added in 0.12

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by bar10dr » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:50 pm

Love the idea about planes.

You'd have to make and designate the runways yourself with tiles.
You could make automated transport planes and perhaps a small private plane.

Sounds like it could be a lot of fun

Perhaps para dropping in multiplayer? lol

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by bobucles » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:23 pm

Let's see if this thread can be organized a bit.
Just haul it
High capacity, low speed, requires player time. Boooring. That's why automation exists.
More trains
This is an extremely viable option with huge capacity and decent speed. Most players favor fast, light trains that go everywhere, but you can still connect small trains to central stations serving slow, lumbering behemoths between megabases. The rail system reaches its limits as more trains fill the tracks, clogging crossways and slowing things down overall. Rail could be VASTLY improved with an elevated/tunneled rail option that allows full cross traffic, as intersections seriously cripple the dedicated express lanes you need for jumbo freight.

Rail could also be improved with remote controlled logistics trains. Make a train, fill it up with logistics requests, remote control it to a base capable of fulfilling that request, and call it back. You can probably do almost all this on the field, I dunno about logistic cargo cars though.
Trucks, free riding cars, etc.
Due to CPU requirements this just can't be a thing. Trains explicitly use tracks so that CPU pathing can be vastly simplified(you MAKE the path by hand, and trains squash everything in their way so no collision worries), and drones fly so they don't need to use CPU for pathing at all. Free riding vehicles are begging to slow the game down for something a train can do better.
Pneumatic Tubes
Meh. If you can build a tube network, you can build a train network just the same. A request from the tube network can be duplicated in train form with no real difference. There's nothing special here, sorry.
Flying trains
I don't care what you call it. Quadcopters, C5's, cargo planes. Yeah. It's a train that flies. Build as many airports as the base needs and let the rest take care of itself. Fuel is an unlimited resource thanks to oil wells so no obscene fuel cost will make a difference. Be it 10 airports, 50 airports or a thousand airports, there WILL be a point where {flying trains > normal trains} and the rail network becomes obsolete. That's a sad thing and IMO bad overall.

A flying personal car would be pretty nice. Flying lets the player get over bad terrain like lakes and forests, which are annoying obstacles the whole game. Who wouldn't want to zip across the land at high speed? It sure beats travelling by foot.
Rocket/Teleporter/Postal Express systems
Now we're talking. What does a player want? That dumb thing they forgot! When do they want it? NOW! How much are they willing to pay? Who cares! These all function in pretty much the same way, with a different flavor of sci fi. Pick your favorite.

The basics of an express transport system are as such:
- It's high tech. Alien tier research and alien artifacts are used.
- The player PREPARES the goods at home base. The base must be capable of making or preparing the requested goods, or this system falls apart.
- The player CALLS the goods in some way. This is probably through a special building(tele) or special terrain (orbit) that has long distance remote controlled logistics.
- The player pays a PREMIUM for the goods they want transported. This PREMIUM is NON RENEWABLE and thus must consume iron/copper/coal and probably high tier advanced circuits, steel) in some way. The premium is probably its own special item like a rocket or an antimatter core or magic transport macguffin. The home base consumes a premium item for EVERY transport request.
- The goods are transported NOW. Or in like a minute. It's your system, make it good if you want the stuff fast!
- No realistic range limitation. It doesn't matter how far away you are. The player wants their missing items just the same if it's 5 minutes or 5 hours (or a completely different save file) away.
- The goods are transported directly to another special building, get air dropped/orbital dropped, or are magic'd directly into the player inventory. Take your pick.

Likewise, the player may wish to move themselves using the same system. The basic principles remain the same, except for a few added hurdles:
- Moving the player is far more powerful and thus should be far more expensive with every use.
- It requires infrastructure at the destination so the player can't arbitrarily drop anywhere (a beacon, another teleporter, postal office, whatever).

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by Lupoviridae » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:50 pm

bobucles wrote: Be it 10 airports, 50 airports or a thousand airports, there WILL be a point where {flying trains > normal trains} and the rail network becomes obsolete. That's a sad thing and IMO bad overall.
What I was suggesting with my quadcopter idea could in no way be automated, it requires player input. It also completely eliminates the need to "stock up" before going to build an outpost. You run to where you want to build, drop a "beacon" and a big, flying roboport loaded with construction robots and items flies out to you, and everything is built using blueprints.

No more grabbing twenty stacks of everything you think you'll need just to run back to your base and drop them off afterwards. No need to worry about getting "that one item you forgot to grab".

Require the copter's flight path to be programmed with processing units and/or advanced circuits before it can take off each time and you have your non-renewable resource cost.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by bobucles » Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:17 pm

What I was suggesting with my quadcopter idea could in no way be automated, it requires player input.
How does the copter fill up? How does it land? Why can't it do more than one trip? Answer all three questions and the system is now fully automated. The up front tax is no biggie, it's no more expensive than building a new train to go to new places. It also suffers from the same "forgot one thing" problem, where if you forget to carry the PREMIUM item then it's SOL. But that doesn't really matter because quadcopters can function just like a train if you have enough of them. Except it flies.

This still goes into long distance logistics, I.E. where the player makes a request and a FAR away base moves to fulfill it. Trains could possibly take care of this for the most part, if the train carries the request to home base to fulfill it and return.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by ssilk » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:49 pm

bobucles wrote:What does a player want? That dumb thing they forgot! When do they want it? NOW! How much are they willing to pay? Who cares!
This is exact the same thought as I had in mind, before beginning this thread... :)
Who cares, what it costs? You need it now. And not in 5 minutes, because that is much too late. :)
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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by jorgenRe » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:21 am

Okay from the post by Bobucles he said if you build tubes then you can build train network. Well as it is right now the tubes are AUTO built when the needed tubes are in the supplying chest. Therefore you only need to place two things: the pneumatic supplier and requester! PS I have plans to improve the network creation so that you only need to place down the pneumatic requester if you already got a pneumatic supplier :)!
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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by SHiRKiT » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:15 pm

Ok, so we are not proposing here a 4th type of automated transport, but just a "emergency transportation system". Which is fine I guess, but I still think that trains could be improved.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by ssilk » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:44 pm

Hm. You're right. It's an emergency transport - or whatever it could be called.

I think this is the essential of this discussion:
- items must be prepared somehow, before they can be transported.
- super fast, you get the stuff withing seconds ("under a minute")
- the player can request it somehow directly, but this system can deliver also automatically.
- It costs a lot, but the usefulness is so big, that it is worth the afford.

And yes, there is the need for more transport, but I think essentially not a different type.
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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:45 pm

What about rocket propelled trains? That could be cool?

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by bobucles » Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:08 pm

Well as it is right now the tubes are AUTO built when the needed tubes are in the supplying chest
How does the tube network get built? If an AI can automatically place tube tiles, it can place train tiles just the same. If you don't need to construct a physical pathway, then it's just another flavor of flying train or teleporter network.

The train network is incredibly robust and can serve players up to incredible scales. Just check out the rocket defense factory. The only real weakness comes at intersections, which require a HUGE amount of player skill and investment to figure out (also, for blueprints to be saved across games). Intersections would be best solved by letting trains ride over one other, either with an elevated rail or a submerged one. Train bridges DO exist IRL, and it is no epic feat to cross one train over another so that neither train has to stop. IMO the elevated rail has more long term potential, since it could feasibly allow water crossing and keeps trains+cargo within player view.
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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by ssilk » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:09 pm

bobucles wrote:
Well as it is right now the tubes are AUTO built when the needed tubes are in the supplying chest
How does the tube network get built? If an AI can automatically place tube tiles, it can place train tiles just the same. If you don't need to construct a physical pathway, then it's just another flavor of flying train or teleporter network.
Ok, I refer to the Pneumatic Modules mod of course. Actually it isn't built in the sense you mean: There is no visible sign on the surface. It just exists. Anywhere. Because it is not important for the game-play. (See, what jorgenRe does with his mod is just a mod, that tests an idea).

Or with other words: You built only the surface stuff. The rest is conncted virtually and automatic.
And before other now say "This is not realistic": That's a game. And "fast" means in my opinion also, that you can built it fast. Very fast.

Or with more other words: If this express/emergency transport is needed, cause a player needs things NOW, then it is logical, that it should not need much time to built it. The logical consequence is, that you don't need to built much.
The train network is incredibly robust....
The only real weakness comes at intersections, which require a HUGE amount of player skill and investment to figure out (also, for blueprints to be saved across games). Intersections would be best solved by letting trains ride over one other, either with an elevated rail or a submerged one. Train bridges DO exist IRL, and it is no epic feat to cross one train over another so that neither train has to stop. IMO the elevated rail has more long term potential, since it could feasibly allow water crossing and keeps trains+cargo within player view.
Yeah, but that is a complete different thing. This is about bridges for rail (or underground tunnels). We have tons of suggestions about it.
But this thread is about express delivery of items.
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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:44 pm

If we are talking about something in emergencies, like fighting alien base and suddenly you run out of ammo. If that is the case, I really like the rocket idea. Rockets are not the thing you think of when you think, "reusable". It would be good to have some sort of supply drop, as said a parachute chest or a crash landing. Would run on fuel and have only one life.

If we are talking about more of regular transport, such as:
  • Supplying repair packs to outposts
    Supplying materials to build blueprints in remote locations
Then I think that more of a reusable idea would be better. I really like the quad copter idea. It is reusable and could run on batteries. There could be a quad copter pad and it would land on it to get resources. It could only land on these pads and would recharge. I think it would be best, to have the propellers be the main "hover" things and adjust fine movements. These would run on the batteries. Then there would be engine thrusters that ran on fuel. These would propel the craft much faster, still hovering by the propellers. Once the thing got to its destination, the engines would turn off and finer adjustments of the propellers would allow slower movements. Because the quad copter could only land on the copter pads, it would have to hover above the ground while doing it's task, that being sending construction robots to build things, or supplying resources. All the time in flight, the batteries would drain which threatens crashing. If it crashes, it might destroy buildings it lands on and it would turn into a crashed quad copter, repairable by crafting with repair materials. The copter would have to return to base, or a placed pad nearby to recharge and to land. The quad copter would have 5 slots. Whatever materials would go in there, miner drills, etc. Since the quadcopter would be a portable robot port, it would have a couple slots for construction robots as well as recharging them. Recharging a robot would drain it's own battery even more. When the engines are running, it might be cool if those recharge the battery.

As well, some really cool animations I imaging of starting sequences. Propellers slowly start, speed up, making loud buzzing noise. Starts to lift off ground, tilts propellers starts to move. Engine engages with loud noise and bright light. Accelerates into distance.

One of the reasons I really like Factorio is all the cool animations and automation. I think this quad copter idea would really add to the "coolness" as well as providing a very nice method of transportation.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:50 pm

Both ideas could be implemented too!

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by wwdragon » Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:05 pm

I think just use teleporter logistics chests.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by SHiRKiT » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:09 pm

Indeed. I think that teletransportation of items makes as much sense as rockets. If I had to choose, I'd prefer the teletransportation chests, since they are the real top of technology.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by Takezu » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:36 pm

At which point is teleportation of matter real?

It's just easymode for transportation. Rockets make by far more sense then trying to dematerilize matter into electronic waves and rematerilize it back somewhere else.

For singel use a rocket makes sense, for multiple use something like a chinook or similar MTH (Medium Transoort Helicopter) would be sufficiant.
Don't think there is something exotic like a quadcopter needed.
But nothing thats based on electrical energy, that would far to easy, just build enough solars and accus and transportation has no meaning at all.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by chris13524 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:27 pm

Don't think there is something exotic like a quadcopter needed.
For emergency transport, I agree, a quadcopter would not make sence. I was talking about more regular transport such as building with blueprints out in the wilderness. Or supplying repair packs to outposts.

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Re: Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

Post by ratchetfreak » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:54 pm

chris13524 wrote:
Don't think there is something exotic like a quadcopter needed.
For emergency transport, I agree, a quadcopter would not make sence. I was talking about more regular transport such as building with blueprints out in the wilderness. Or supplying repair packs to outposts.
isn't that bots already? I mean yeah they don't look like quadcopters but for all intents and purposes they are.

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