Factorio Forums

In another thread it was just posted by Bilka:

'Expensive mode was completely removed in 2.0, there will be no expensive-mode mod.'

From that I assume that 2.0 and Space Age will see no official Marathon or Death World Marathon game modes since these modes rely on the expensive recipes.
For me personally this is a huge letdown since these are my favorite game modes.

I completely understand that getting the normal mode balanced enough before release is already a monumental task. I really hope that a proper Marathon ('hard-mode') will be worked on shortly after tho, don't wanna sound like a elitist but I always enjoyed Marathon much more and found Default too fast, like in other modern games where you unlock new stuff faster than you can reasonably try it out. I recently even made a thread about why I think Marathon is so much better (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=114986&sid=5222b9a4 ... 2e877cdc2a).

Sorry but I will have to hold back purchase of Space Age until this is implemented, I already set my Steam client to stay on the current version and not update to 2.0.

Removing expensive mode that is like 10 or so recipes with increased cost when noone cares about balancing them or extending to other recipes i would say that is an improvement because mods can reimplement expensive mode while being easier to update (no need for entire game release) and being more flexible about having compatibility with other mods. With SA we are slightly pushing towards using mods so if the only argument you have is "that would require installing mods" then it may be better for you to stay on 1.1 anyway.

Yea. Honestly, it would have always made more sense as a vanilla mod to begin with.

Pretty shocked reading a reply like that from a dev. Simplifying it like that I have to highly doubt you ever really played Marathon mode yourself.

If I have to install a unofficial mod to get Marathon mode that is a no go. I would really expect to get a official properly balanced Marathon mode like in the Vanilla game included in the price. Not offering that higher difficulty for the more hardcore players can't possibly be the right thing to do.

I understand this is different than Vanilla which was developed over many years in early access but I have patience, staying on current version until this officially (and properly) makes it to Space Age.

We just do not want to maintain those recipes when a web of increasing recipes has various influences across. Having green chip cost 2 iron plates and 8 copper cables sure feels more expensive, but since one of the planets from SA puts heavy pressure on recycling, if every 4 green chips recycled would yield 8 cooper cables instead of only 3 then is that really expensive mode or cheap mode?

Yeah I know it's not easy to invent/balance the expensive recipes (like I'm sure it was not for Vanilla either) but not even trying..
Btw, fyi, going green circuit from 1/3 to 2/8 not only 'feels' more expensive, it requires a completely different factory layout if you really want to optimize stuff to the maximum. That's the whole point of the expensive recipes.

I'm sure there is a solution also for the Fulgora recycler challenge. This is not the time for it tho, I know you guys have other stuff to worry about now. But I'm sure, in a little while, some of you guys at Wube will start longing.. longing for that higher difficulty..

Then I will jump in also. Now, good luck with the release.

Panzerknacker wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 9:09 pm If I have to install a unofficial mod to get Marathon mode that is a no go.

Why? An unofficial mod could be made by someone who has actually played lots of expensive mode and knows how it should be balanced in SA. It can also update more frequently than the base game if necessary, and could be made to be more compatible with other mods. If none of the devs play expensive mode, then they might not do a very good job extending/balancing it to SA anyway...

I would suggest that nobody really knows that 2.0 is going to be like until it's released. Nobody really knows if they'll want a marathon mode or not in 2.0. It may not even make sense (it sounds like it might not). 2.0 might be difficult enough without Marathon or Death World. Maybe the developers will add a Marathon and/or Death World in 2.1.

Personally, I'm playing a Marathon megabase right now, but I'm not going to get my britches in a twist about 2.0, because it's not even released yet.

Xorimuth wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 11:40 am

Panzerknacker wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 9:09 pm If I have to install a unofficial mod to get Marathon mode that is a no go.

Why? An unofficial mod could be made by someone who has actually played lots of expensive mode and knows how it should be balanced in SA. It can also update more frequently than the base game if necessary, and could be made to be more compatible with other mods. If none of the devs play expensive mode, then they might not do a very good job extending/balancing it to SA anyway...

I don't like it to be unofficial because I want it to be THE Marathon mode, like in the base game. If someone refers to Marathon, I want everybody to understand what they mean, not having to refer to some kind of mod. I feel like this game (and most games ofc) need some kind of hard-mode for experienced players, Marathon used to fill that gap. I am pretty confident Space Age is NOT going to hit the difficulty level of Vanilla Marathon because it was clearly designed for the average player base and we all know that by far most players play normal mode. So I am not looking forward to starting a 'ezmode' Space Age run, I was looking forward to start a run straight on Marathon mode because that's what I'm playing all the time. One more thing is that when you make it a mod, achievements will not count anymore.

But like I said, I can understand that Spage Age won't have expensive recipes at the start because it would take so much time to design that. The whole reason a complex-to-balance game like Factorio can exist is because they could throw the game out in the wild through early access and have it be balanced while being played.
I really want expensive recipes / Marathon to be added at some point in the future tho, then I will probably buy the expansion.

What I can not understand however is if 2.0 will actually remove Marathon mode from the base game. I already have my Steam client set to not update beyond the current version just in case. We will see.

Ideally marathon will be a vanilla mod, like the base game and space age will be implemented as. So it will be a mod, and also official.

Would simplify object data too.

Panzerknacker wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 2:28 pm
What I can not understand however is if 2.0 will actually remove Marathon mode from the base game. I already have my Steam client set to not update beyond the current version just in case. We will see.

Version 1.1 isn't going anywhere. You'll be able to play it for as long as you'd like. Play it in Marathon mode. Play it in Marathon/Death World mode. Personally, I'm going to continue to play 1.1 (Marathon) for the time being, and also play 2.0 when it comes out, at the same time.

What Steam chooses to do is a whole different matter, and nobody outside of Steam can say what they're going to do. If you want to be sure you can play 1.1 forever, just download the game from Factorio.com.

What Steam is going to do depends entirely on Wube, not on Steam, that's how it works afaik. If Wube does not create a new title (with unique app ID or w/e its called) for Factorio 2.0, pretty sure Steam will auto update everyone to 2.0 when it comes out, thus removing Marathon. You can prevent this by going to the Properties menu for the game and under Betas set it to 1.1.110. Not sure wether you can launch both versions and if savegames are shared between.

I have of course also the standalone binaries for the game. I will continue playing v1 mainly but will give 2.0 a try since it's free.

While playing MMOs, I learnt how to deal with game updates. They are inevitable, not debatable and cruel. After the update, everything that was before is gone. It is as if it never existed. Now, the game is what it is, and as if it was never any different. So deal with marathon mode: after the update to 2.0, marathon never existed. Almost all people will update to 2.0, and they will forget or never know there was this game mode with more expensive recipes.
The sooner you realize this, the sooner you're able to enjoy all the nice features and improvements that were developed in the last 4 years.

If the game is too easy for you, adjust the map settings. More enemies, smaller/more scarce resource patches, more pollution, more enemy expansion. Deliberately choose to not use productivity modules and don't research productivity related technology. If in general expensive mode requires 30% more resources, put recyclers everywhere and destroy half of your products.

Haha, good one. Luckily this isnt an MMO or another game that is tethered to a server (I don't play those or simply quit playing when they mess them up).

We can simply keep playing v1.

Tertius wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 10:42 pm While playing MMOs, I learnt how to deal with game updates. They are inevitable, not debatable and cruel. After the update, everything that was before is gone. It is as if it never existed. Now, the game is what it is, and as if it was never any different. So deal with marathon mode: after the update to 2.0, marathon never existed. Almost all people will update to 2.0, and they will forget or never know there was this game mode with more expensive recipes.
The sooner you realize this, the sooner you're able to enjoy all the nice features and improvements that were developed in the last 4 years.

If the game is too easy for you, adjust the map settings. More enemies, smaller/more scarce resource patches, more pollution, more enemy expansion. Deliberately choose to not use productivity modules and don't research productivity related technology. If in general expensive mode requires 30% more resources, put recyclers everywhere and destroy half of your products.

Close, but this isn't an MMO. This has game changing mod support.
True, it may be removed, and we might not get an official mod to replace it. However, there are a number of mods (search for revert and several show up) that pretty much undo the official changes. Some I even have forgotten about. They might not be popular, and people give up and forget about them, but as soon as the expansion drops, if marathon is removed, it will be re-added as a mod.

Factorio is AWESOME because it doesn't use amy sort of DRM! It's is one of the EXTREMELY rare pieces of non open-source software that doesn't use DRM. That's one of the (many) reasons that I love Factorio. I have a file on my hard drive called "factorio_alpha_x64_1.1.110.tar.xz". That means that I can play Factorio 1.1 Marathon Death Word on any computer I own until the day I die (and it will never cost me another penny).

I would never choose to rent it through a third party company (like Steam), having to rely on some third company to allow me to play my own game, according to their rules, assuming their service is functional, (while they're collecting data on me), for as long as the company exists. That seems just crazy to me when the alternative is literally, a single file that you just keep forever.

I have played almost exclusively deathworld marathon. It was obvious for a long time, that there is not much thought/time put into its balance and playtesting.
Even in the design, in that case. On dw marathon very quickly all groud tiles turn to a brown mess left over from the biters
I thinks its a good decision to let go, and let a community-driven set of recipe changes establish itself, if there is more than 5 of us interested in it.

You can link your steam account to your Factorio account and download whatever version you want from the website. All you're missing out on is the Steam achievements.

As for an "official" marathon mod, I don't think it's as necessary as you seem to think. I'm a prominent member of the System Shock 2 community and over there we have a curated list of "recommended" mods, and it works exceptionally well for new players, they rarely if ever have trouble finding or installing them.

I understand there's a special kind of feeling playing a "official" mod over a community one, but i guess in the best case we can hope Wube eventually "endorses" a community mod and officially includes it as Marathon Mode. It's really not that hard to make one. But they probably have more important things to be working on during the release period for space age, like bug fixing, balancing, etc.

NineNine wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 2:10 am Factorio is AWESOME because it doesn't use amy sort of DRM! It's is one of the EXTREMELY rare pieces of non open-source software that doesn't use DRM. That's one of the (many) reasons that I love Factorio. I have a file on my hard drive called "factorio_alpha_x64_1.1.110.tar.xz". That means that I can play Factorio 1.1 Marathon Death Word on any computer I own until the day I die (and it will never cost me another penny).

I would never choose to rent it through a third party company (like Steam), having to rely on some third company to allow me to play my own game, according to their rules, assuming their service is functional, (while they're collecting data on me), for as long as the company exists. That seems just crazy to me when the alternative is literally, a single file that you just keep forever.

Yeah, same here. Cool thing is you get the Steam version included in the price tho, I like the cloud save function.

Any computer you own I would not be too sure about. Few years and the Chinese will take over the market. If it aint x86 or able to emulate that, good luck.

But kovarex is thinking about open sourcing Factorio so that would solve also that problem.

Panzerknacker wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 7:01 pm But kovarex is thinking about open sourcing Factorio so that would solve also that problem.

source?