vanilla death world too hard

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NoaAldritt
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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by NoaAldritt »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:28 pm
NoaAldritt wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:33 pm
TL;DR: Flamethrowers OP, and a nice mix of flamers and lasers is the way to go.(Imo)
I feel like part of this is because of how little fluid flamers use per second.
Oh yeah, it 100% is. They use 3/s when firing, but nothing at all while idling. And even the largest waves of biters like deathworld artillery-caused rushes rarely last more than maybe 10-15 seconds for a single rush (continued artillery fire will, of course, cause a coninuous stream of biter attacks).

A pumpjack at the absolute minimum will produce 2/s, so if you say a turret fires for 15 seconds every five minutes, then every five minutes:
the turret consumes 3/s x 15s=45 oil
Meanwhile
the pumpjack produces 2/s x (60x5)=600 oil.
This single pumpjack could cover 13~ turrets firing at that pace.. And then you can add speed modules to it. And beacon it. And that's when you realize that, most of the time, you're only activating like, 4-8 turrets at a time for any given attack on any given part of your wall, and that most of those attacks are more like 2-4 seconds, not 15.

:D Efficiency at it's best!

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jodokus31
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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by jodokus31 »

PunkSkeleton wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:54 pm
I've just tried deathworld again after some years. The biters are not a problem, you can kill them with pickaxe + fish. However the only copper nearby was under a nest and that proved too hard.
So yes, some deathworld maps are probably impossible.
Depends, if you brute force with pickaxe and fish, it might be too much. But, you can roam the map and gather some resources + research and approach it again.
But of course, that's very grindy and it feels like a quite bad start

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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by aka13 »

NoaAldritt wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:33 pm

Tbh, don't bother doing light oil to turrets.
I have read that reasoning, but there are a couple of counterpoints, which I consider outweight running all defenses from 1 pipe - how fluid system work.
My wall is segmented, as is my expansion. I don't want my segments to be one, since it will be horrenderous for performance, and 1 interrupted segmant means that pumping for all different locations is stopped as well.
Having separated independent liquid networks means they can be processed concurrently/multithreaded.

I also don't want the protection segments to be on the same robot network, so I have to drive in a train for each segment either way, and at that point, I don't really care which fluid to drive in with it. My research is way past any meaningless +10% damage, I don't care about it, it's just that if I have to transport liquid either way, might as well do the "best". In the beginning, it did matter, and as soon as you have oil refining set up, there is no reason not to grab the free 10% damage, since gas is consumed either way for research.

I have produced anbd installed about 50k turrets by now. I run extension taskforces from time to time, as you see on the screenshot, but since there is no such thing as automated blueprinting in vanilla, it's bothersome, and the cloud quickly catches up, so the logic "only expansion groups" does not work, if you output any meaningful science numbers.

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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by meems »

jodokus31 wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:51 pm
meems wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:35 pm
step 1. Ignore start ore patches next to aliens and instead look for big rocks for coal.
Exactly. In case of your former map, you would not need coal/stone immediately and you could mine iron/copper first for some time.

You can also run around the map as you want. You only get detected by enemies, if you are too near. (It's very unlikely that you hit an expansion group in the beginning.)
If you find some iron, which isn't too near of a nest, you can smelt a bit and get some materials. Same with copper. You can even build a small base near an iron patch with electricity and haul some copper somewhere else. Handmining doesn't produce pollution and it's not so slow, that is unthinkable.
Enemies only attack, if they absorb pollution or you are too near the nest.

That way you can grind your way to get some research and ammo

I mean, of course, you can just reroll and search for a better map, but I would claim, that most maps are beatable. It's just a matter of grinding. The easiest maps are those, with a lot of trees.

There's also the marathon mode, which makes everything more expensive. That's really brutal, because you have to produce more pollution for the same products.
I got past the start, I followed some of the other tips, like getting fish.
I explored the map and found a both a forested haven and a lucky coal field well away from any aliens. But the distances were large. There was a long period, about 60~80 minutes of walking resources between mines and my safe-base, rushing turrets, before I connected the map with conveyors, then the game became normal. Researched gun and explosive upgrades and cleaned out a few alien lairs.

Actually this was not a desert map. Only the starting mines were on desert. So really I got the forest experience, except had to do this long start.

Image

Took me a while to adjust to this death mode, but I think I've got it now. I would like to try a full desert. Ultimately I agree its just down to luck. If the start ore-fields are inaccessible, then a player needs luck to find a remote and alien-free substitute field, and also needs the patience to shuttle resources on foot for hour or more. Even so, if the distances are too great, then it won't be possible to defend on foot. On my map I was stretched defending the increasing attacks on my widely seperated outposts, barely had time to build the factory complex, but managed.

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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by jodokus31 »

meems wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 8:49 am
jodokus31 wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:51 pm
meems wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:35 pm
step 1. Ignore start ore patches next to aliens and instead look for big rocks for coal.
Exactly. In case of your former map, you would not need coal/stone immediately and you could mine iron/copper first for some time.

You can also run around the map as you want. You only get detected by enemies, if you are too near. (It's very unlikely that you hit an expansion group in the beginning.)
If you find some iron, which isn't too near of a nest, you can smelt a bit and get some materials. Same with copper. You can even build a small base near an iron patch with electricity and haul some copper somewhere else. Handmining doesn't produce pollution and it's not so slow, that is unthinkable.
Enemies only attack, if they absorb pollution or you are too near the nest.

That way you can grind your way to get some research and ammo

I mean, of course, you can just reroll and search for a better map, but I would claim, that most maps are beatable. It's just a matter of grinding. The easiest maps are those, with a lot of trees.

There's also the marathon mode, which makes everything more expensive. That's really brutal, because you have to produce more pollution for the same products.
I got past the start, I followed some of the other tips, like getting fish.
I explored the map and found a both a forested haven and a lucky coal field well away from any aliens. But the distances were large. There was a long period, about 60~80 minutes of walking resources between mines and my safe-base, rushing turrets, before I connected the map with conveyors, then the game became normal. Researched gun and explosive upgrades and cleaned out a few alien lairs.

Actually this was not a desert map. Only the starting mines were on desert. So really I got the forest experience, except had to do this long start.

Image

Took me a while to adjust to this death mode, but I think I've got it now. I would like to try a full desert. Ultimately I agree its just down to luck. If the start ore-fields are inaccessible, then a player needs luck to find a remote and alien-free substitute field, and also needs the patience to shuttle resources on foot for hour or more. Even so, if the distances are too great, then it won't be possible to defend on foot. On my map I was stretched defending the increasing attacks on my widely seperated outposts, barely had time to build the factory complex, but managed.
Wow, looks great. That's a lot of dedication :-)
I would claim, that the most difficult part still is coming, when evolution hits 25%. It could be problematic to spread out too much. But to move into the woods is probably a good idea. Also, the brick path is a great idea.

Generally I would say, a map is not beatable, when:
- You find no ore iron patch, which is not infested by biters (meaning you cant access it at all to handmine), Coal and stone can be gathered via big rocks, Copper, I'm not sure. Handmining, while killing biters with pickaxe and fish is surely an option, but tedious af.
- You can't brute force to kill one nest with pickaxe and fish. Sometimes, you can, but you need tons of fish and you have to dodge the worms spits for the most part.
- Everthing else, map settings, marathon, desert and trees are manageable, but still make it even tougher.

The map settings can be adjusted to be more desert, less trees to make it even harder.

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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by blazespinnaker »

Death world is fairly easy. Just make sure you get land mines as soon as possible, and avoid wasting iron on magazines.

Glad you're playing hardcore. It's the only way to fly!

Once you're done this, try out marathon deathworld.

Finally, if you're looking for actual impossible, try vanilla deathworld rampant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=FLbJMBM7QnM
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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by meems »

>I would claim, that the most difficult part still is coming, when evolution hits 25%. It could be problematic to spread out too much.
I was lazy just upgrading gun turrets to +4,+4 , and got a surprise when the big spitters evolved and trashed my turret groups. But I had enough time to place flame turrets which are currently holding well. Using standard rocket launcher to clean out big worm lairs is easy.
Have placed double Efficiency 1 modules in all my buildings and have a small solar power array.

Bugs are pretty mellow.

Not speed running this, so happy to let research trickle forward. Can't see things being too bad, though there's always the next bug evolution.


There was one absurd moment where i crashed my car into cliff while being chased by a large bug pack, and i was doomed. They destroyed the car in 2 seconds, and I thought it was game over, except they ignored me and ran off after something else. Surely thats a game error that needs fixing.

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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by mmmPI »

meems wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:30 pm
and got a surprise when the big spitters evolved and trashed my turret groups

Can't see things being too bad, though there's always the next bug evolution.
For this you can type in /evolution in the game console it is not considered a command that disable achievement. it tells you the % of evolution, which can help you track your relative strengh at some fix point in time in their evolution, it also tells what is responsible for the evolution between the pollution , the time, or kills .

it doesn't help that i don't know the thresholds though :)

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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by jodokus31 »

meems wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:30 pm
>I would claim, that the most difficult part still is coming, when evolution hits 25%. It could be problematic to spread out too much.
I was lazy just upgrading gun turrets to +4,+4 , and got a surprise when the big spitters evolved and trashed my turret groups. But I had enough time to place flame turrets which are currently holding well. Using standard rocket launcher to clean out big worm lairs is easy.
Have placed double Efficiency 1 modules in all my buildings and have a small solar power array.

Bugs are pretty mellow.

Not speed running this, so happy to let research trickle forward. Can't see things being too bad, though there's always the next bug evolution.


There was one absurd moment where i crashed my car into cliff while being chased by a large bug pack, and i was doomed. They destroyed the car in 2 seconds, and I thought it was game over, except they ignored me and ran off after something else. Surely thats a game error that needs fixing.

Image
Ah, then you had already passed that. I meant, when spitters and mediums show up, and literally eat the turrets camps quite early and chew through the ammo. Often before you could access oil and flamethrowers, yet.
Efficiency 1 modules are extremely strong, they reduce energy and pollution of almost everything down to 20%. If you want more challenge, then you should avoid them :mrgreen: Also, landmines are very efficient, and you can use bots to replace them.

Personally, I never played with the "dying means end" condition. If I invest hours in something and a stupid mistake lets me die, I just respawn or even reload. However, I'm currently at the other side of hardcore factory: Seablock speedrun-ish
blazespinnaker wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:41 pm
Finally, if you're looking for actual impossible, try vanilla deathworld rampant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=FLbJMBM7QnM
I enjoyed this one. Now in marathon mode :D

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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by blazespinnaker »

I'll reload on marathon, because anything else would just be craaazee, but my autosave timer is set to 3 hours.

I don't mind restarting on vanilla though, cause I enjoy starting fresh anyways. Also makes for a good excuse to take a break from Factorio, which you really need sometimes. :)

In general though, hardcore isn't that hard, just means you want to rush personal armor and can't really attack the big biter base, at least not without appropriate preparation. Well, and trains. Trains are far more dangerous than biters, imho.
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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by Rafiz »

Deathworld is be playable on desert. I even tweaked death world to be harder and played this on desert. I would say any settings that are not hand-tweaked are winnable on any map.

If you have insanely hard map generated by preset settings, you can challenge me by writing it's seed and I will try beating it.

As for few tips :
Watch your map often!
Never-ever let pollution touch enemy bases.
don't use burner drills (except for maybe first 100 ore mined), switch to electrical drills as soon as possible.
When your pollution starts touching enemy bases, but it's too early - stop mining! Go for a break, grab yourself a cup of tea, or something - while world is cleaning itself.. Or continue, but be aware, that there will be 10-20 biter attacks from that direction and prepare for that.
If you see small base (1,2....max 3 nests) you should be able to clean it with pickaxe... I mean, kill initial biters with use of ammo, but once defenders are dead, you can keep up with killing respawning defenders and destroy nests. Less bullets used = less pollution produced. Ofc, if there are worms it's different story.. Kill worms first. You will also need some fish and light armor for this tactic.
Physical damage 1 is very very important tech. I've played deathworlds on multiplayer and people often remove this tech from my queue.... But it's important! Why? Because you need 4 bullets to kill biter - initially. After this tech - 3 bullets is enough. This is HUGE difference and I can't emphasise this enough. Kill-pollution ratio is the most important factor when considering your defences on deathworld. If you spend that 1 extra bullet (33% more) on every biter, you use 33% more iron for magazines and produce 33% pollution just to keep your defences running. 33% is a lot.

As for mid-game tips, focus on defences first. If your devences start getting overwhelmed - stop producing tech, expanding base, produce ONLY bullets. Once you stop getting overwhelmed, try to gradually start producing stuff again. It sometimes take long time before pollution calms down - you will have hard times if you "spike" your pollution suddenly.

Also general mid-game tip is - on deathworld killing nests gives a lot of evolution. Don't kill nests if that's not absolutely necessary (like if they are literally on your starting resources, or really close to starting location).


I once hosted server where everyone spawned separately and with separate tech. I've got one player that joined 2 days-in, with very high evolution (blue biters common, almost behemots) and he was just SO careful that he was able to play even with constant threat of guaranteed anihilation.. To be fair - he made his base in forest near ocean and mostly hand-mined ores... But still, he convinced me that with good map setup, enough persistance and patience you can even survive 1.0 initial evolution...

But with standard starting conditions you don't need good map.

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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by meems »

Image
finished in 33 hrs.
Kept going with the efficiency 1 module maxing. Kept increasing my solar-capacitor array.
Bugs didn't evolve to behemoth, and became much easier to repel with lvl 5 guns, lvl 4 lasers , lvl 3 flame. Guns are more powerful than lasers, but laser turrets have 250% the hp of gun turrets, so I used lasers turrets at the 2nd line of defence after walls, with guns 3rd line, flame 4th.
Cleaning out bug bases got easier with explosive rockets. I didn't bother using a tank.

Overall, deathworld difficulty seems imba; the red sci pack phase is slow, difficulty peaks at hard for green sci with lots of bug attacks, but once blue is acquired the difficulty drops off, and purple-yellow is no different than normal.

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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by meems »

@Rafiz
Good tips. I might try them if needed on future deathworlds. For my map which was effectively forest, I only needed to change a couple of strategies.

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Re: vanilla death world too hard

Post by jodokus31 »

meems wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:00 am
Overall, deathworld difficulty seems imba; the red sci pack phase is slow, difficulty peaks at hard for green sci with lots of bug attacks, but once blue is acquired the difficulty drops off, and purple-yellow is no different than normal.
That's probably true. The threat from the beginning is reduced quite a lot by progressing through the tech tree. Esp. powerful are efficiency modules mk1, flame turrets and landmines.
It would be cool, if the threat stays contant and you have to fight the entire time for survival, but I can imagine, that's quite tough to realize. Constant threat means, that it's always on the edge. Paired with the amount of possibilities it's almost impossible to make a balanced experience for different playstyles. It would be one viable way and that's it, unless you manage to balance those possibilities to be equally strong and also matches with biters strength. Last thing would determine, how hard it is.

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