Why are you guys so pressed?

Post all other topics which do not belong to any other category.
Post Reply
GBrayJ
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:25 am
Contact:

Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by GBrayJ »

Why is everyone so angry at the devs for taking a long time for the expansion?
You haven't paid for it, so what the issue?
They're trying to deliver a quality product, and not a cash grab or glitchy expansion.

Can you guys stop getting on the devs ass and just let them develop the game in peace?
--
GBrayJ
Factorio Player for 2+ Years

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12881
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by ssilk »

I would mean it’s not the long time they need, that’s o.k., it’s that the community doesn’t know what they’re doing.

I need to explain.

Factorio was developed very open. We had the blog post every week (FFF), and some features had been changed, cancelled or rewrote due the reactions from there. Not every reaction has been taken (e.g. not binary splittable slot sizes). But the feedback from the community prevented some mistakes. That was a very agile type of development and resulted in much better product quality than developing it all secretly and making a big boom release in the end.

In my eyes (viewing from an agile perspective in which I develop software since over 15 years now), big boom is an anti-pattern. And I think many other players here know that intuitively. That’s why they might been “angry”.

Not saying wube needs to tell us the exact plans, not saying wube needs to post every week. In their own interests they should post regularly (every 4-8 weeks) how the things are standing. The more often, the more feedback. It’s a lot of extra work to handle this feedback, but it’s worth it.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

posila
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 5181
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by posila »

ssilk wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:22 am
The more often, the more feedback. It’s a lot of extra work to handle this feedback, but it’s worth it.
I feel scarred for life from responses to some changes ... 0.17 oil change, color correction pass on sprites and removal of pick axe come to my mind immediatelly. But there was more, I think. There is definitelly some resentment burnt into my soul :( I still think all of those were positive changes for the game. And there definitelly were many cases where the community feedback stopped us from doing something bad or stupid (and I don't remember any specific example.) I miss the feedback but I am also glad there is none at this stage of the development. Feedback from team members seems just about right amount to me right now.

Tertius
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by Tertius »

I hope you have game testers that replace the public crowd from initial development that continue to tell you if you're doing "bad or stupid". Not only professional game testers (they often don't really care about a game but only about their given task on paper) but also ordinary players who play the game just for entertainment, because for us players, the entertainment value is the most important property of any game.

aka13
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 443
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by aka13 »

posila wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:51 am
ssilk wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:22 am
The more often, the more feedback. It’s a lot of extra work to handle this feedback, but it’s worth it.
I feel scarred for life from responses to some changes ... 0.17 oil change, color correction pass on sprites and removal of pick axe come to my mind immediatelly. But there was more, I think. There is definitelly some resentment burnt into my soul :( I still think all of those were positive changes for the game. And there definitelly were many cases where the community feedback stopped us from doing something bad or stupid (and I don't remember any specific example.) I miss the feedback but I am also glad there is none at this stage of the development. Feedback from team members seems just about right amount to me right now.
Haha, oh boy, I also remember the whole bot-belts thing, it was even bigger than the oil, as far as I can remember.
Pony/Furfag avatar? Opinion discarded.

JimBarracus
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:14 am
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by JimBarracus »

Removing split fluid wagons also broke some designs.

I actually miss the old steam boilers.

User avatar
jodokus31
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1464
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by jodokus31 »

GBrayJ wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:01 pm
Why is everyone so angry at the devs for taking a long time for the expansion?
You haven't paid for it, so what the issue?
They're trying to deliver a quality product, and not a cash grab or glitchy expansion.

Can you guys stop getting on the devs ass and just let them develop the game in peace?
--
GBrayJ
Factorio Player for 2+ Years
Not sure, who is "everybody". At least in my perception, everything seems quite fine.
Might be, that the seablock community is just a bit more chill and friendly

Whatever, I think, I would be cool the get some insight in the current development. I'm really curios what the devs are going to do, what modding community hasn't be able to, yet. In which direction it goes

The oil disaster was quite heavy. Never experienced such toxicity before and after.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12881
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by ssilk »

posila wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:51 am
I feel scarred for life from responses to some changes ... 0.17 oil change, color correction pass on sprites and removal of pick axe come to my mind immediatelly. But there was more, I think. There is definitelly some resentment burnt into my soul :( I still think all of those were positive changes for the game. And there definitelly were many cases where the community feedback stopped us from doing something bad or stupid (and I don't remember any specific example.) I miss the feedback but I am also glad there is none at this stage of the development. Feedback from team members seems just about right amount to me right now.
I exactly know what you mean. Response from the customers is sometimes … enervating. For example in my last project there was the big question, how do the customers edit hundreds of datasets (configurations of solar plants). Each dataset contains many dozens or hundreds of values. They made a very logic suggestion: let’s use CSV-files. They made it, because they where accustomed to Excel - because of 10 years they lived with bad software design. I said we’re in the 21st century and things have changed a lot, but they (and especially the product owner, who also insisted to this idea, because he didn’t know it better), and so we added an editor to the program, where you could paste the CSV, edit the lines (with over 1000 characters) and added even an inline validator. It took us nearly two month of the project to implement all of that stupidity. Luckily we worked in the background on a process, to get all that data from the original sources and cumulate it to a consistent configuration. The result was, that the CSV-editor needs to be removed, which took another 2 weeks.

And the points I want to make with this example are
- it is super important to hear what customers need, what they like and what they hate.
- but that shouldn’t be collected by the developers
- instead there is a role (often known as the product owner) who collects those suggestions, handles the conversation with the customers and devs, filters out bad ideas or changes them into good ones and when ready presents the result.

I don’t see that role at wube. Maybe it’s there, but deep in background. Instead I see only developers talking to us (the customers) and it’s clear that this is enervating. I would hate that part also, because it’s a bad job to make things where you exactly know, that this is the best solution that’s possible, and then you need to change the role and present your idea and handle all the critics. This job must be done by someone, who isn’t so deep involved into the implementation.

My favorite picture to show this problem and why it hurts so much is the famous comic
Image
randomly chooses from this blog
The developers are the pigs, they are committed, it really hurts them to present their work and get only bad feedback. But a product owner is only involved. He could handle this kind of user feedback and is the filter you need as devs to not be so scared about the needs of your customers.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

FunMaker
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:43 pm
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by FunMaker »

I would like to see regular FFFs again. But that is my perspective as a player. On the other hand i see, that writing these and working with the responses of the community is a rollercoaster on its own and including these in the development process.
But there is one thing that Wube should consider: The Hype of the community is gone for now. In the last couple of months i recognized a massive stall of community activity on the forums. And if you want to keep being in the minds of the players, you should tease the community. I know factorio is a kind of a niche game that does not attract everyone walking by and most dedicated players will return if news will show up in 1-2 years. But teasing the community (even with technical stuff) would keep the interest in the game much higher.

User avatar
jodokus31
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1464
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by jodokus31 »

FunMaker wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:10 pm
I would like to see regular FFFs again. But that is my perspective as a player. On the other hand i see, that writing these and working with the responses of the community is a rollercoaster on its own and including these in the development process.
But there is one thing that Wube should consider: The Hype of the community is gone for now. In the last couple of months i recognized a massive stall of community activity on the forums. And if you want to keep being in the minds of the players, you should tease the community. I know factorio is a kind of a niche game that does not attract everyone walking by and most dedicated players will return if news will show up in 1-2 years. But teasing the community (even with technical stuff) would keep the interest in the game much higher.
When Factorio gets released on switch, there will be more activity, i suppose. Not for 1 year, though...

User avatar
MEOWMI
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 12:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by MEOWMI »

I, for one, have complete trust in Wube's ability to deliver. I'm sure a very large portion of the playerbase feels the same way, but perhaps it isn't quite as big as one might hope.

A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is always bad.

Pi-C
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:13 am
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by Pi-C »

MEOWMI wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:05 pm
A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is always bad.
Is English or German your first language? Just asking because "eventually" ("schließlich"/"letztendlich") doesn't have the same meaning as the German "eventuell" ("perhaps"). :-)
A good mod deserves a good changelog. Here's a tutorial (WIP) about Factorio's way too strict changelog syntax!

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12881
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by ssilk »

FunMaker wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:10 pm
But there is one thing that Wube should consider: The Hype of the community is gone for now. In the last couple of months i recognized a massive stall of community activity on the forums.
That is not necessarily a disadvantage. A lower volume in the forum raises in my experience a higher quality of posts. 8-)
And if you want to keep being in the minds of the players, you should tease the community.
I think there is not much so need at wube to convince the community. Yes, of course it’s useful from marketing sight. From outside it looks for me as if they are happy with that side of business.

From player sight it is of course a big wish to see more. But that goes — as already explained — with higher costs at wube. My point was that these costs are worth the effort; the feedback from the community is sometimes super useful. Maybe they are right: it’s just not the right time for that yet.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

vjbone
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:02 am
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by vjbone »

I think Wube made an announcement too early.
If you look at the rimworld devblog, they announced the biotech dlc a few weeks before launch. Before that, there were only news about current development.

User avatar
landmine752
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:35 am
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by landmine752 »

aka13 wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:11 am
posila wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:51 am
ssilk wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:22 am
The more often, the more feedback. It’s a lot of extra work to handle this feedback, but it’s worth it.
I feel scarred for life from responses to some changes ... 0.17 oil change, color correction pass on sprites and removal of pick axe come to my mind immediatelly. But there was more, I think. There is definitelly some resentment burnt into my soul :( I still think all of those were positive changes for the game. And there definitelly were many cases where the community feedback stopped us from doing something bad or stupid (and I don't remember any specific example.) I miss the feedback but I am also glad there is none at this stage of the development. Feedback from team members seems just about right amount to me right now.
Haha, oh boy, I also remember the whole bot-belts thing, it was even bigger than the oil, as far as I can remember.
I remember having worked on some belts vs bots vs trains wallpapers; hamming up the 3 main ways of playing and picking a side. In retrospect, I feel bad that was the design because it wasn't too long after my project that changes were made and people exploded. Was originally going to try and course correct with more unifying pieces (opposed to divisive), but people got so bad it wasn't worth touching again. And then the oil change got worse.
ssilk wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:22 am
I would mean it’s not the long time they need, that’s o.k., it’s that the community doesn’t know what they’re doing.

I need to explain.

Factorio was developed very open. We had the blog post every week (FFF), and some features had been changed, cancelled or rewrote due the reactions from there. Not every reaction has been taken (e.g. not binary splittable slot sizes). But the feedback from the community prevented some mistakes. That was a very agile type of development and resulted in much better product quality than developing it all secretly and making a big boom release in the end.

In my eyes (viewing from an agile perspective in which I develop software since over 15 years now), big boom is an anti-pattern. And I think many other players here know that intuitively. That’s why they might been “angry”.

Not saying wube needs to tell us the exact plans, not saying wube needs to post every week. In their own interests they should post regularly (every 4-8 weeks) how the things are standing. The more often, the more feedback. It’s a lot of extra work to handle this feedback, but it’s worth it.
I think it's unfair to attribute all the blame to the open development strategy. I think the damage that AAA game marketing has done is just showing more and more. Remember how people thought GTA 6, a game early in development, was trash because it looked like it was - quite literally - early in development? AAA loves to show highly polished vertical slices in their marketing, and it seems like it was a build from last week. Most people don't know how a game (or presentation) gets made.

Similarly, AAA game marketing has very tightly controlled hype cycles. Within 6-12 months a game is announced, gets a few trailers, is released, and then there is live service or DLC that roll out additional content months-to-a-year after. Now, why would someone with experience in irrelevant marketing counter argue a seasoned software developer? Because I see it across the industry, not just Factorio. More and more I see people saying "it was announced too soon" (see post above) because people want what they're used to. They don't want to hear about something unless it's ready to release.

I speculate here, but what I think happened is that Wube was probably excited to build on the success of Factorio and so they say "hey, we're going to build on Factorio." Since people expect a 6-12 month release after tease, they expect Wube to be polishing a final product and rolling out the release hype cycle. When the hype cycle doesn't roll out, people get confused because "wasn't Factorio 2077 6 months away? What have you been doing all this time since release?" Or people get put off, "if you weren't ready to release, why did you talk about it? You announced too early."

GluAp
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:28 am
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by GluAp »

Well I'm not angry or anything like that, just because there are less FFFs or it is hinted that the DLC will be some time along in the future.

However I think some of you have made some reasonable points. I've been following the FFFs since 0.16 on a regular basis. But since FFF slowed down, so did my personal engagement.
I liked that process of transparency and technical explanations, which brought me much closer to the game and the people behind the game. For example - I had never heard of Perlin Noise before. And now I have read and even watched more about it.

And, sadly, that is what I'm missing at the moment right now. But that is my personal side. I am convinced that the DLC will be on the same level as the main game, with or without regular user feedback.
When I first came here, Wube opened my eyes what good EA and user interaction can be like. That's why I own two copies of the game.
I'm happy that I got to experience that.

I will respect the decisions Wube made for the DLC and the style of communication around it. Others and I pointed out what was good previously while development of the main game was in process. I hope that this will be considered again in the further development.

tuhe
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Why are you guys so pressed?

Post by tuhe »

I don't understand why the developers are apprehensive.
All I want for the expansion is a few tweaks to the biters, a few additional music tracks, perhaps a new biome or two, and also that it is as accessible as Vanilla, more complex than Py, has a bigger scope than SE (I am obviously talking about SE with all planned changes), and obviously that it won't break my blueprints or change any of the mechanics I care about :-).
--

I think we as a community could do more to simply write about what parts of the game/mods we enjoy and would like to see more of -- a lot of the interesting and fun talk has taken to discord, and the forum has become a bit of an issue-tracker.

Post Reply

Return to “General discussion”