why prod modules are important

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by mrvn »

No aliens in the current map, just Marathon with RSO and testing my own map generator.

RSO means ores are further away, more like railworld than default. And my map generator makes a bit of a maze like situation and you can't go in straight line, so resources are even further to transport. And the trees, oh those trees, they won't let me pass. What am I going to do with all the wood?

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by jodokus31 »

mrvn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:22 am
No aliens in the current map, just Marathon with RSO and testing my own map generator.

RSO means ores are further away, more like railworld than default. And my map generator makes a bit of a maze like situation and you can't go in straight line, so resources are even further to transport. And the trees, oh those trees, they won't let me pass. What am I going to do with all the wood?
RSO is indeed a bit trickier. I tried to lower the frequency on vanilla, but it doesn't go very low (Values below 16.66 have no effect)
But RSO can be really scarce.
So, yeah, it's getting more understandable.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by mrvn »

So here is my take on smelting with productivity modules:
beacon-smelter.png
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The idea is to lay out the smelter from the start for beacons and electric furnaces later on. The ore and plate belts are matching up perfectly (with a few extra belts for the becons) so you just deconstruct the furnaces and inserters and blueprint in the new ones.

There are 2 way designed in to remove the fuel: 1) one furnace can be left that will keep working till the fuel is used up. 2) the fuel can be drained via belt. At which point the fuel input could be removed and ore transported on both sides of the belt using cheaper belts. But I'm lazy and will probably just eat the cost of the few blue belts and leave the fuel belts. Unfortunately there is no destructor-blueprint to optimize the removal. Best idea would be to remove all yellow belts, undergrounds and splitter and then select the region.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by Nidan »

Nidan wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:56 am
Let's try to move the discussion away from Kindergarden back to something fact based...

According to https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... tASIURsgoA a single productivity module 3 requires 1200 coal + copper + iron, when using prod 3 along all processing steps (which, given everyone seems to be in agreement that miners should be the last thing to get modules, seems a sensible requirement).

To repay itself, a single prod 3 module thus needs to produce 1200 extra ore, which with 10% productivity, will happen after 1200 / 10% = 12000 mining cycles. (Or 12000 / 0,5/s = 6h 40min at speed 1.) (When using multiple prod modules, the modules will still repay themselves after 12000 mining cycles since cost increase and productivity increase will cancel out.)

Since prod modules have a speed penalty, to make meaningful comparisons to the mining productivity research, we need to bring the speed back up to 1.
Possible arrangements are e.g.
- 2 prod 3 + 1 speed 2 without beacons: 2614,57 / 20% / 0,5/s ~ 7h 16min https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... FWgk0BAA==
- 3 prod 3 in the miner + 3 speed 2 in 2 beacons, assuming you can hit 8 miners with each pair of beacons: 29683,745 / 8 / 30% / 0,5/s ~ 6h 52min https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... mo65GEAA==

Mining productivity 4 research takes 281498,667 ore to research https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... OZxDztCw==. In a single miner, it'd take 281498,667 / 10% / 0,5s ~ 1564h ~ 65d to repay itself. When comparing to the 8 miner + 2 beacons setup above, the brake even point is at ~227,6 miners. Taking mining productivity 4 through 6 instead, the brake even point doubles to ~455,2 miners.
It's weekend (and I have an actual keyboard), so time to throw some more math around.
How long would it take to recoup the module cost, when, instead of using speed modules, we compensate by adding extra miners?

Starting again with one miner and a single prod 3 module, that miner has an effective speed of (1 + 10%) * (1 - 15%) = 0,935. To compensate we need to reach an effective speed of 1,1 (i.e. base mining speed plus prod bonus), thus add 0,165 effective speed, which is 0,165 / 0,935 ~ 0,1764 extra miners.
One miner costs 18 ore https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... WpxnAEAA==, so 1218 ore for a miner with module, so 1218 / 0,1764 ~ 214,941 ore for the partial miner we need, thus 1414,941 ore in total. Since we could have gotten the base production of the extra miners by just placing those miners without adding modules, we'll ignore it and only consider the productivity bonus for repaying the cost. Thus, 1414,941 / 10% ~ 14149,412 mining cycles or 1414,941 / 10% / 0,5/s ~ 7h 52min.

Since the ratio between effective speed with and without the modules will likely change depending on mining productivity research, we'll have to consider it when generalizing.

Old effective speed (without new module(s)) = (1 + old prod bonus) * (1 - old speed malus)
New effective speed (with extra module(s)) = (1 + old prod bonus + new module prod bonus) * (1 - old speed malus - new module speed malus)
Target effective speed (new productivity bonus at old speed malus) = (1 + old prod bonus + new module prod bonus) * (1 - old speed malus)
Extra miners needed = (target effective speed - new effective speed) / new effective speed = new module speed malus / (1 - old speed malus - new module speed malus)
So prior mining prod bonus cancels out, which saves me from having to figure out how to make nice looking tables here ;)

Running the vanilla cases through a calculator gets us:
Upgrading the number of prod 3
  • from 0 to 1: 17,64% extra miners, 7h 52min to repay
  • from 0 to 2: 42,86% extra miners, 9h 33min to repay
  • from 0 to 3: 81,82% extra miners, 12h 9min to repay
  • from 1 to 2: 21,43% extra miners, 8h 18min to repay
  • from 1 to 3: 54,55% extra miners, 10h 34min to repay
  • from 2 to 3: 27,27% extra miners, 9h 21min to repay

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by mmmPI »

Nidan wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:27 pm

Running the vanilla cases through a calculator gets us:
Upgrading the number of prod 3
  • from 0 to 1: 17,64% extra miners, 7h 52min to repay
Just to make sure i understand the result properly, If i were to place a prod3 module 1 in my mining drills, i would need to add 17.64% extra miners compared to what i already have to maintain the same production of ore , the cost of adding one module prod3 in all my mining drills including the 17.64% extra, would take 7h52 min to be repayed by the extra productivity gained and so no matter what research occur during this time ?

This is if i'm understanding it correctly, without taking in account the energy consumption differential, that could be integrated as a fraction of the ressources needed to produce the number of solar pannel / accumulator needed to provide the extra energy ? Lemme try :

https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... G80pwcNAIA
https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... G80hx0AgA=

Those should indicate the price of 1 solar pannel and 1 accumulator in line with the previous cost calculation.

According to the wiki

https://wiki.factorio.com/Solar_panel
A single solar panel outputs an average of 42 kW over a day and requires 0.84 accumulators to sustain a constant power output through the night.
a mining drill having an energy consumption of 90 kW
https://wiki.factorio.com/Electric_mining_drill

And prod3 module increasing energy consumption by 80 % https://wiki.factorio.com/Productivity_module_3

According to previous result, each mining drill receiving a prod 3 module requires an extra 0,1764 miners to maintain an effective speed of 1.1 we could say that adding a prod3 module to a mining drill increases its energy consumption by a total of (90kW*80%)+[(0.1764x90kW)*80%] making the result at ~177kW instead of 90 kW for a single mining drill .

or a true increase of ~97% energy consumption to power enough additionnal mining drill to maintain a speed of after they all receive a module 1.1 ?

The number of solar pannel necessary to power 1 mining drill requiring 90kW of energy is 90/42 = 2.14 solar pannel for a regular mining drill. Which need to be coupled with 1.8 accumulator in order to sustain power at night.

If we increase the requirment by 97%, the additionnal cost per mining drill is {[2.14x1.97x[cost of a solar pannel] + [1.8x1.97x[cost of an accumulator]]}.

Cost of solar pannel being 40 ore and cost of an accumulator being 9 we have , 168.63 and 31.91 or 200.54 additionnal ore to spend during the process that need to be repayed.

Which if we consider need to be payed only by the extra productivity could be added to the 1414,941 ore total ? increasing the total amount of time required to repay the whole thing by 14.13% which on 7h52 minutes, will give 8 hours 58 minutes ?

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Re: why prod modules are important

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Except, you might not use solar panels. Then you consume fuel and produce additional pollution
Also miners with prods produce more pollution in addition to more power, which increases biter evolution rate and aggression.
Of course, it doesn't matter much, with no biters, only that dissipated pollution could increase UPS slightly.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by blazespinnaker »

With modules, you can also boot strap them, which one frequently does, even in speed runs. Ie, you place PM1, and as production / tech ramps up, you replace them with PM2 (reusing the PM1s of course), and then finally PM3s. Upgrade BPs FTW.

So, the math is a bit more complex.

PM1s can pay for themselves quite quickly, and fairly soon you'll put the added prod towards more PM1 / PM2. Done right, I imagine the production curve can be much less painful.

Of course, if the goal is just launching a rocket, than there's a point you want to bend all towards that singular goal, rather than post launch white SPM.

The power thing of course, is a very big deal. Nuclear being the elephant in the room.
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Re: why prod modules are important

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jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:42 pm
Except, you might not use solar panels. Then you consume fuel and produce additional pollution
Also miners with prods produce more pollution in addition to more power, which increases biter evolution rate and aggression.
Of course, it doesn't matter much, with no biters, only that dissipated pollution could increase UPS slightly.
You play without aliens but with pollution? That might be your biggest UPS saving measure: Turn pollution off.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by Nidan »

mmmPI wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:52 pm
Nidan wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:27 pm

Running the vanilla cases through a calculator gets us:
Upgrading the number of prod 3
  • from 0 to 1: 17,64% extra miners, 7h 52min to repay
Just to make sure i understand the result properly, If i were to place a prod3 module 1 in my mining drills, i would need to add 17.64% extra miners compared to what i already have to maintain the same production of ore , the cost of adding one module prod3 in all my mining drills including the 17.64% extra, would take 7h52 min to be repayed by the extra productivity gained and so no matter what research occur during this time ?
correct

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Re: why prod modules are important

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Nidan wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:27 pm
Starting again with one miner and a single prod 3 module, that miner has an effective speed of (1 + 10%) * (1 - 15%) = 0,935. To compensate we need to reach an effective speed of 1,1 (i.e. base mining speed plus prod bonus), thus add 0,165 effective speed, which is 0,165 / 0,935 ~ 0,1764 extra miners.
This seems a bit backwards and unrealistic. You have the resources for build a PM3 module but you didn't build enough miners to cover all of the ore patch yet? But your math seems reasonable.

Overall though using PM3s without beacons is kind of a loose loose situation. You pay more and you get less. The only saving grace is that the ore patch will last longer. Cost wise PM3s in the miner + beacons with SM3s is cheaper for the same output at the cost of having to move the miners after half (depends on the build pattern) the ore is gone.

The nice thing though is you can automate this step, place a roboport and some construction bots next to the mine with a power switch set to turn on when the ore is gone (connected to the miners)(just to save the power on the roboport that isn't doing anything while ore is mined). Then you just have to deconstruct and place a blueprint to shift all miners. It's not like having to find a new ore patch, fight off aliens, build new rail track just to establish a new mine. So I consider that OK. There is even a mod that can automate deconstructing and placing the new blueprint with some circuit logic.

For me new mine fields also tend to produce more ore than the belts can carry. I usually under-design the belts because as the ore patch shrinks the output will lessen. With slower belts the output remains steady longer. So a miner with speed 0,935 will probably not result in less ore for me till near the end. And the end will be 10% further down the line, as in I won't get less output in the same timespan the mine would normally last and then with PM3s it will still be going while without it would be gone.

(And yes, I know, miners being blocked on the belt waste UPS or something.)

Oh, this reminds me of another thing you can do if you use the "Auto Deconstruct" mod. Again have a roboport with construction bots covering the ore patch. Then place down the miners as blueprint and drop just a part of the required miners and matching PM3 modules into a storage chest. The bots will place them, they mine all the ore beneath them, "Auto Deconstruct" marks them for deconstruction and the construction bots will move them to a new place. Over time you mine all the ore with a constant number of miners running till the very end. Only sensible if you don't have enough PM3 modules and don't need all the ore right now. But lets you mine the ore with fewer PM3s and no human interaction and still get the benefit.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by aka13 »

@Nidan, thank you very much for the time you invested into the calculation.

jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:42 pm
Except, you might not use solar panels. Then you consume fuel and produce additional pollution
Also miners with prods produce more pollution in addition to more power, which increases biter evolution rate and aggression.
Of course, it doesn't matter much, with no biters, only that dissipated pollution could increase UPS slightly.
If you are at prod 3, there is no evolution happening anymore. But the frequency of the attacks increases, that is true. Harder (impossible, propably) to keep the cloud from reaching biters.
In fact, drills become your main polluter, and everything else is miniscule in comparison.
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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by aka13 »

mrvn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:48 pm
Nidan wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:27 pm
Starting again with one miner and a single prod 3 module, that miner has an effective speed of (1 + 10%) * (1 - 15%) = 0,935. To compensate we need to reach an effective speed of 1,1 (i.e. base mining speed plus prod bonus), thus add 0,165 effective speed, which is 0,165 / 0,935 ~ 0,1764 extra miners.
This seems a bit backwards and unrealistic. You have the resources for build a PM3 module but you didn't build enough miners to cover all of the ore patch yet? But your math seems reasonable.

Overall though using PM3s without beacons is kind of a loose loose situation. You pay more and you get less. The only saving grace is that the ore patch will last longer. Cost wise PM3s in the miner + beacons with SM3s is cheaper for the same output at the cost of having to move the miners after half (depends on the build pattern) the ore is gone.

The nice thing though is you can automate this step, place a roboport and some construction bots next to the mine with a power switch set to turn on when the ore is gone (connected to the miners)(just to save the power on the roboport that isn't doing anything while ore is mined). Then you just have to deconstruct and place a blueprint to shift all miners. It's not like having to find a new ore patch, fight off aliens, build new rail track just to establish a new mine. So I consider that OK. There is even a mod that can automate deconstructing and placing the new blueprint with some circuit logic.

For me new mine fields also tend to produce more ore than the belts can carry. I usually under-design the belts because as the ore patch shrinks the output will lessen. With slower belts the output remains steady longer. So a miner with speed 0,935 will probably not result in less ore for me till near the end. And the end will be 10% further down the line, as in I won't get less output in the same timespan the mine would normally last and then with PM3s it will still be going while without it would be gone.

(And yes, I know, miners being blocked on the belt waste UPS or something.)

Oh, this reminds me of another thing you can do if you use the "Auto Deconstruct" mod. Again have a roboport with construction bots covering the ore patch. Then place down the miners as blueprint and drop just a part of the required miners and matching PM3 modules into a storage chest. The bots will place them, they mine all the ore beneath them, "Auto Deconstruct" marks them for deconstruction and the construction bots will move them to a new place. Over time you mine all the ore with a constant number of miners running till the very end. Only sensible if you don't have enough PM3 modules and don't need all the ore right now. But lets you mine the ore with fewer PM3s and no human interaction and still get the benefit.
Yeah, no, not making sense at all. You almost always have more modules, than ore fields covered with miners - covering ore fields is (spoiler) boring and tedious! Why would you want to do that? Modules, on the other hand are produced in the background, steady and constantly, until reaching your desired threshold.

No mod ever, except for automated AAI miners (been there, done that, love them, best thing in game, if only they would not have the collision issues, I would finally have a sink for the uranium) or the miner bots from clonan will save you from the setup tedium. Perhaps, a setup with recursive blueprints, plus some form of spidertron construction automation may, but this is definately too much to expect from someone, who can not even automate pd3 in sufficient quantities.
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Re: why prod modules are important

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aka13 wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:57 pm
If you are at prod 3, there is no evolution happening anymore. But the frequency of the attacks increases, that is true. Harder (impossible, propably) to keep the cloud from reaching biters.
In fact, drills become your main polluter, and everything else is miniscule in comparison.
Maybe there is something to be said for efficiency modules in miners. 2 efficiency module 2 in each miner and you cut the energy and pollution down to 20%.

How much resources are you wasting on fighting off the aliens spawned by all that pollution? Would the savings pay for the modules at any reasonable rate?

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by aka13 »

mrvn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:05 pm
aka13 wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:57 pm
If you are at prod 3, there is no evolution happening anymore. But the frequency of the attacks increases, that is true. Harder (impossible, propably) to keep the cloud from reaching biters.
In fact, drills become your main polluter, and everything else is miniscule in comparison.
Maybe there is something to be said for efficiency modules in miners. 2 efficiency module 2 in each miner and you cut the energy and pollution down to 20%.

How much resources are you wasting on fighting off the aliens spawned by all that pollution? Would the savings pay for the modules at any reasonable rate?
Efficiency modules are definitely a waste of resources, I understand the UPS side of things for speed, but eff is definitely a waste of time, after you have established nuclear.
Losses are not as bad actually. The most damage I take is caused by myself, sadly. I used to have a system, where I carefully dose when construction bots are enabled, to prevent fire losses, but what it caused was a too long repair queue, so that when bots were inserted, they simply did not perform the repairs, because the quue is just too long, and they get extracted again, and that in turn caused perimeter degradation. I have to think up something to prevent them from suiciding as they do now. Last 10 hours are representative for the kills, so I screenshotted only 10h.
Screenshot 2022-09-11 000845.png
Screenshot 2022-09-11 000845.png (228.49 KiB) Viewed 277 times
Pipes also need some work, the perimeter in general as it exists right now was a makeshift solution. I find it so tedious, that there are no set-and-forget style defences for late-game waves. I will definately not be able to research arty to shoot as far as needed, and trying to find the right maze shape to trick biter AI is just not a fun gameplay mechanic for me
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Re: why prod modules are important

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aka13 wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:02 pm
Yeah, no, not making sense at all. You almost always have more modules, than ore fields covered with miners - covering ore fields is (spoiler) boring and tedious! Why would you want to do that? Modules, on the other hand are produced in the background, steady and constantly, until reaching your desired threshold.

No mod ever, except for automated AAI miners (been there, done that, love them, best thing in game, if only they would not have the collision issues, I would finally have a sink for the uranium) or the miner bots from clonan will save you from the setup tedium. Perhaps, a setup with recursive blueprints, plus some form of spidertron construction automation may, but this is definately too much to expect from someone, who can not even automate pd3 in sufficient quantities.
You do? I do too, at least in the end game stage. It's just during buildup that modules lack behind for me. At some point the module factory just stops because the output chests are full and whatever you build just gets the modules and the factory starts back up for a while. And with miners part of the work is moving miners from exhausted patches to new ones, which means they already would have modules.

But everybody here is all about PM3s being so expensive and you should never put them into miners because of the horrendous cost and all. Apparently not everybody. So do you actually put PM3s into miners regularly?


As for building new mines you should start up the map editor, put down a huge patch of ore and design a big mining outpost with rail station and defenses and all the bells an whistles included. Then take a blueprint of that. Go back to the game and you can establish a new mine with one click + connecting the railroad, build the train station and place the first roboport. Easily done with a personal roboport, a roboport in a spidertron or a roboport in a train if you have a mod for that active. Automation is the name of the game.

Still annoying work but placing the actual miners is the least of the problem. If you build every mining outpost to match the ore patch then you are wasting a lot of time doing boring stuff.

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Re: why prod modules are important

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aka13 wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:15 pm
mrvn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:05 pm
How much resources are you wasting on fighting off the aliens spawned by all that pollution? Would the savings pay for the modules at any reasonable rate?
Efficiency modules are definitely a waste of resources, I understand the UPS side of things for speed, but eff is definitely a waste of time, after you have established nuclear.
Losses are not as bad actually. The most damage I take is caused by myself, sadly. I used to have a system, where I carefully dose when construction bots are enabled, to prevent fire losses, but what it caused was a too long repair queue, so that when bots were inserted, they simply did not perform the repairs, because the quue is just too long, and they get extracted again, and that in turn caused perimeter degradation. I have to think up something to prevent them from suiciding as they do now. Last 10 hours are representative for the kills, so I screenshotted only 10h.
Screenshot 2022-09-11 000845.png

Pipes also need some work, the perimeter in general as it exists right now was a makeshift solution. I find it so tedious, that there are no set-and-forget style defences for late-game waves. I will definately not be able to research arty to shoot as far as needed, and trying to find the right maze shape to trick biter AI is just not a fun gameplay mechanic for me
I was more thinking about the cost of bullets. But I see you loose pipes. That means flame turrets I assume. So all you loose is oil and that's infinite. Assuming you have enough oil wells withing your borders:
oil-might-be-hard-to-get.png
oil-might-be-hard-to-get.png (293.52 KiB) Viewed 275 times
Imagine playing this with bitters and having to get the oil from up there. That's about 3.5km away from the edge of my base where I'm starting a new smelting and oil complex (where I am).

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by jodokus31 »

aka13 wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:57 pm
@Nidan, thank you very much for the time you invested into the calculation.

jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:42 pm
Except, you might not use solar panels. Then you consume fuel and produce additional pollution
Also miners with prods produce more pollution in addition to more power, which increases biter evolution rate and aggression.
Of course, it doesn't matter much, with no biters, only that dissipated pollution could increase UPS slightly.
If you are at prod 3, there is no evolution happening anymore. But the frequency of the attacks increases, that is true. Harder (impossible, propably) to keep the cloud from reaching biters.
In fact, drills become your main polluter, and everything else is miniscule in comparison.
Screenshot 2022-09-10 235302.png
In my DW Marathon, I put efficiency modules 1 in miners. Also, evolution was at 91%, when I reached prod3's. Very small amounts of behemoths appeared, but it's getting alot worse till 100%. I'd say, eff modules 1 are better than prod3s, but also depends what you are prioritizing. I also didn't use laser and have to pay bullets together with oil for flame turrets. That way, I could be more relaxed towards nuclear. solar is also quite expensive in marathon and, so I avoided that. Good old solid fuel was it for the main part.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by mmmPI »

Nidan wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:27 pm
correct
Thank you, i'm not sure my math are correct though , i think counted the cost of the total number of solar pannel and accu needed for 177kW and didn't substract the cost of energy that one would have paid anyway without modules, which would have been 177-90 = 87 kW. Which means it's not 200 ore that are required to make for the energy consumption but less. and then on/1414 is not 14% anymore, rather 6 or 5 something. Which is not completly trivial but would not add as much difference than with your results.

The same cannot be said if one factor in the beacon though, because this one cost 480kW alone. And as speed module 3 increase energy consumption more than they increase speed. Their effect on the energy consumption will also increase the theoric amount of time required to pay back for a module. That is not 2.14 extra pannel ( even though that number was wrong) but 12 solar pannel that would be required just for the beacon not counting the effect of the speed module. 12 solar pannels is 480 ore ! with the cost of the accumulator it's almost 50% of the cost of 1 module ( although in those case it will be spread over several additionnal module ).
jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:42 pm
Except, you might not use solar panels. Then you consume fuel and produce additional pollution
Also miners with prods produce more pollution in addition to more power, which increases biter evolution rate and aggression.
I agree , solar pannel are not efficient in terms of ressources cost/ energy produced compared to nuclear. Or even using depleted pumpjack to make solid fuel for boilers, which is "free energy". I think however solar pannel are the most frequent choosen option for large long term games where PM3 shines.

There would be a way to math the cost efficiency of the defense line given x amount of pollution. Either in theory, you can math out the total HP/defense of biters that would be generated by the extra pollution given a medium absoption rate of the ground and the quantity each nest transform into an angry bug and compare to the cost of ressources needed to kill them. And in practice measuring how a certain setup compare to the theorical value, given inefficient target selection, building destroyed, and so on.

Pollution effect is tough to math x)

Also i'm gonna leave here the cost of efficiency module 1 and efficiency module 2

https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... ReaU4OGgEA
https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... IHqzlYFAIA

Those are the same as prod module that we are talking about since the beginning.

The effect of energy consumption is capped at -80% which you can get with 3 efficiency 1.

The cost of 3 efficiency 1 is lower than the cost of 1 efficiency 2, the efficiency 2 being itself made out of 5 efficiency 1, i let you imagine the ratio.

The bonus of the efficiency 2 is a reduction of - 40%, so you would need 2 of them to cap the bonus in the miner.

mrvn
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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by mrvn »

aka13 wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:15 pm
I used to have a system, where I carefully dose when construction bots are enabled, to prevent fire losses, but what it caused was a too long repair queue, so that when bots were inserted, they simply did not perform the repairs, because the quue is just too long, and they get extracted again, and that in turn caused perimeter degradation. I have to think up something to prevent them from suiciding as they do now. Last 10 hours are representative for the kills, so I screenshotted only 10h.
Have you considered removing the repair packs instead of the bots? That leaves the bots with the packs they already hold in hand but maybe that is limited enough they don't suicide as much.

You can also try ScaredyBot which makes bot retreat to the roboport when they take damage. One mode functions like an energy shield, trading energy for health till the bot returns to recharge. The other simulates the battery taking a hit at 60% damage to the bot which then also returns to recharge. In both modes the goal is to have the bots run away instead of suicieding in fire or the like.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by Nidan »

mrvn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:48 pm
Nidan wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:27 pm
Starting again with one miner and a single prod 3 module, that miner has an effective speed of (1 + 10%) * (1 - 15%) = 0,935. To compensate we need to reach an effective speed of 1,1 (i.e. base mining speed plus prod bonus), thus add 0,165 effective speed, which is 0,165 / 0,935 ~ 0,1764 extra miners.
This seems a bit backwards and unrealistic. You have the resources for build a PM3 module but you didn't build enough miners to cover all of the ore patch yet? But your math seems reasonable.
Of course this is more theoretical than practical.
Sometimes the mathematicial approach seems backwards at first glance, but if we want to compare various setups, they must be consistent in some metric, for which I chose rate of output. Otherwise we're comparing apples and oranges. And even if your ore fields are covered completely, you may need an estimate on how many new ore fields you need.

I was about to argue about potential energy savings using this setup, but 90kW * (1 + 3 * 80%) * (1 + 81,82%) ~ 556kW is more than the energy consumption of the beaconed setup from my earlier post which uses 90kW * (1 + 3 * 80% + 3 * 60% / 2) + 2 * 480kW / 8 = 507kW per miner and there's still room to add one efficiency module of you are so inclined.

In conclusion, the more miners variant uses roughly 10% more energy than the beaconed variant. Maybe not so theoretical after all, if there are things you'd trade this energy inefficiency for...

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