Factorio Forums

Are there any plans for Factorio to support HDR? Would it actually make a visual difference?

No and no, because the sprites are rendered as simple image file formats.
And this is not a suggestion. Moving to general.

I think that HDR mode would work quite well with Factorio especially after all the lightning updates.
And since most of that is calculated in runtime it might not need any changes from srpites.

Night mode would look much better in HDR most likely.
(I might be biased but I have a monitor capable of HDR and difference on any light effects in games that support it tends to be visible and details in dark areas are much better with HDR)

Unless I'm reading something wrong HDR for the entity images would just add more bits to the color channels. So any gradients get a bit more smooth. But overall nothing really changes for the images. They are all at a constant light level so there is nothing where HDR effects would change the image,

So I guess any changes would come from the composition. When you take the bright image of something and then apply the darkening for night you reduce the color values quite a bit. So the 8 bit per channel get reduced to maybe 4. Having a fractional part could preserve details there. And then you would have to implement stuff like the tone mapping and local contrast in the GPU and have them done per frame. That would probably be 95% of the work unless vulcan already has that implemented for you.

ssilk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:56 am because the sprites are rendered as simple image file formats.[/color]

What I meant by asking for HDR is not a simple toggle in the game, but a re-rendering of all the assets. If all the assets were re-rendered in HDR, and there was an option to enable them in game, would it make a visual difference?

jackthesmack wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:45 pm

ssilk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:56 am because the sprites are rendered as simple image file formats.[/color]

What I meant by asking for HDR is not a simple toggle in the game, but a re-rendering of all the assets. If all the assets were re-rendered in HDR, and there was an option to enable them in game, would it make a visual difference?

See my last post. I don't believe it would. Maybe a few pixel would change but probably not even enough to notice. Think about it. HDR handles the case where for example you have a dark room with a bright window. The dark parts use one range and the window a separate range so you can still see details in each. Which model has such a case? At most you have some parts of the model that is in it's own shadow and might gain a bit more detail.

HDR also increases the color range, it is a significant improvement to the amount of colors capable of being displayed, a much larger portion of the colors discernible by eye.

I do not believe that that particular aspect would benefit Factorio however. Nor do I believe that the contrast enhancement (light vs dark) would help Factorio either.

This is factorio, just why? Reasonable is not in the dictionary.

I’m not sure why people are so negative about HDR here. It makes a huge difference when implemented well. You simply cannot achieve that kind of dynamic range in an SDR image.

It would enable daylight to be much brighter. And furnaces, light bulbs, explosions, fires, and more could all have far punchier look to them, even in daylight. You could also adjust the night visor so there is a bigger difference between the night visor and daylight. HDR enables you to remap the dynamic range in a way that is a lot of fun, even in strictly 2D games. You could do fun things with upcoming content too, like the space platforms being closer to peak brightness than the surface daylight, and the ghost holograms being a bit brighter with more ‘glow’ to them.

Sadly, many games have pretty lame implementations where it’s just ‘same but brighter,’ but that’s not what a good implementation of HDR is. Factorio with a good implementation of HDR would be pretty fantastic on a display that supports it.

The thing is that Factorio isn't about good quality graphics to most players. Most of the game is spent plopping down blueprints in map mode where there are virtually no graphics at all, just color blocks. It's much more important to optimize graphics for performance (not quality), because the game is a beast and quickly overwhelms ever the fastest computers. I'd rather have poorer quality graphics if it meant the game can run faster, and I'd imagine I'm not the only serious player who would agree. I have a megabase that runs at 10 FPS right now on a top of the line computer. The *last* thing I want is fancy graphics that makes it run even slower.

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:22 am The thing is that Factorio isn't about good quality graphics to most players. Most of the game is spent plopping down blueprints in map mode where there are virtually no graphics at all, just color blocks. It's much more important to optimize graphics for performance (not quality), because the game is a beast and quickly overwhelms ever the fastest computers. I'd rather have poorer quality graphics if it meant the game can run faster, and I'd imagine I'm not the only serious player who would agree. I have a megabase that runs at 10 FPS right now on a top of the line computer. The *last* thing I want is fancy graphics that makes it run even slower.

True to an extent, but I don’t see these things as mutually exclusive. I mean, Factorio already has many graphics settings that are toggle-able. Also, HDR is not computationally expensive and is mainly a GPU thing—not something I’d expect to affect Factorio that significantly. If you’re on a more recent modern GPU, HDR is pretty trivial actually.

I guess it just has more to do with HDR being new, and not yet widespread on PC. I’m on Mac and Consoles which have pretty broad HDR support at this point, so I guess I’m just getting used to HDR content now.

Main point I disagree with to an extent is that Factorio is a very visually interesting game, and I think the visuals are not a trivial part of the game’s appeal. There is a commitement to a distinct tone and aesthetic. Factorio has a lot more ‘heart’ than many games, especially other ‘factory’ games; and the visual decisions by Wube play a big part in establishing that.

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:22 am The thing is that Factorio isn't about good quality graphics to most players. Most of the game is spent plopping down blueprints in map mode where there are virtually no graphics at all, just color blocks.

This is a horrible sweeping generalisation. You're free to play with your coloured blocks, but I spend a lot of time looking at the game's graphics, thanks. UPS-heads are free to install mods which take out all the animations, light layers, shadows, and integration patches if they like.

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:22 am The thing is that Factorio isn't about good quality graphics to most players.

This statement seems very dubious to me. Did you really make a survey among a representative sample of Factorio's player base to back up this claim ? I'm almost certain it's not the case.

I really enjoy the graphics in the game, even if I don't need a 3D engine, raytracing, and whatnot to enjoy Factorio. I could generalise that, most players do really care about graphics in Factorio, which could be true, or false, because basically unverified, as is your statement.

My intuition is that megabasing to the point UPS are the major limiting factor the the enjoyment concerns a small percentage of Factorio's players. Excluding this (probably) small population, it's hard to imagine people would NOT prefer better graphics if given the opportunity.

Deadlock989 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:08 am

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:22 am The thing is that Factorio isn't about good quality graphics to most players. Most of the game is spent plopping down blueprints in map mode where there are virtually no graphics at all, just color blocks.

This is a horrible sweeping generalisation. You're free to play with your coloured blocks, but I spend a lot of time looking at the game's graphics, thanks. UPS-heads are free to install mods which take out all the animations, light layers, shadows, and integration patches if they like.

I think that's a very reasonable generalization. I can't imagine playing the game without blueprints post-rocket launch. It seems like it would just be incredibly tedious and boring to plop down a building at a time. That's just me, of course, but I would imagine that most people are not playing Factorio for the graphics. There are an infinite number of games that looks prettier on a computer screen than Factorio.

Koub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:18 pm

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:22 am The thing is that Factorio isn't about good quality graphics to most players.

My intuition is that megabasing to the point UPS are the major limiting factor the the enjoyment concerns a small percentage of Factorio's players. Excluding this (probably) small population, it's hard to imagine people would NOT prefer better graphics if given the opportunity.

So you think that most people launch a rocket, and then walk walk from the game, or start a new one? Really?

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:02 pm I think that's a very reasonable generalization. I can't imagine playing the game without blueprints post-rocket launch. It seems like it would just be incredibly tedious and boring to plop down a building at a time. That's just me, of course, but I would imagine that most people are not playing Factorio for the graphics. There are an infinite number of games that looks prettier on a computer screen than Factorio.

One does not need to be in map mode to use blueprints. I use them all the time, but rarely do it from map view. I very much like the looks of my factory as more than simple colored blocks.

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:03 pm So you think that most people launch a rocket, and then walk walk from the game, or start a new one? Really?

Why is it that you assume people would just walk away/start a new game after launching the rocket if they're not into extreme megabasing? I keep playing post rocket launch, but am not concerned about eeking out every drop of UPS. While I would certainly like to be able to keep building bigger, I am not wanting to do so at the detriment of other aspects of the game. I'd rather design and play with my factory in a way that's fun until the slow down is too much, then start over, instead of finding ways to redesign/things to shut off in game to gain more UPS.

FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 2:43 pm

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:02 pm I think that's a very reasonable generalization. I can't imagine playing the game without blueprints post-rocket launch. It seems like it would just be incredibly tedious and boring to plop down a building at a time. That's just me, of course, but I would imagine that most people are not playing Factorio for the graphics. There are an infinite number of games that looks prettier on a computer screen than Factorio.

One does not need to be in map mode to use blueprints. I use them all the time, but rarely do it from map view. I very much like the looks of my factory as more than simple colored blocks.

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:03 pm So you think that most people launch a rocket, and then walk walk from the game, or start a new one? Really?

Why is it that you assume people would just walk away/start a new game after launching the rocket if they're not into extreme megabasing? I keep playing post rocket launch, but am not concerned about eeking out every drop of UPS. While I would certainly like to be able to keep building bigger, I am not wanting to do so at the detriment of other aspects of the game. I'd rather design and play with my factory in a way that's fun until the slow down is too much, then start over, instead of finding ways to redesign/things to shut off in game to gain more UPS.

If the game ran faster (ie: not using top end graphics), you wouldn't have to quit your game and start another one so soon. I also don't enjoy trying to figure out how to improve UPS so that I can continue playing my game (so I don't). There are all sorts of new challenges with larger bases that aren't available if you're only playing small bases, and you can't get to those challenges while also using cutting edge graphics. The fancier the graphics you are playing with, the sooner you have to quit your game and re-start. I like playing Factorio quite a bit, and I'd like to be able to play it a whole lot more. If I wanted to stare at something with pretty colors, I'd just buy a lava lamp.

That being said, only Wube knows how their customers play Factorio. Maybe most customers are like you and just like watching the little factories do their little things on the screen. If that's the case, then sure, maybe there's a case for layering on more GPU/CPU intensive graphics. My point is I think that most customers would probably prefer to have longer, more fun gameplay than prettier graphics. But heck what do I know?

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:37 pm If the game ran faster (ie: not using top end graphics), you wouldn't have to quit your game and start another one so soon. I also don't enjoy trying to figure out how to improve UPS so that I can continue playing my game (so I don't). There are all sorts of new challenges with larger bases that aren't available if you're only playing small bases, and you can't get to those challenges while also using cutting edge graphics. The fancier the graphics you are playing with, the sooner you have to quit your game and re-start. I like playing Factorio quite a bit, and I'd like to be able to play it a whole lot more. If I wanted to stare at something with pretty colors, I'd just buy a lava lamp.

Frankly, I'm not arguing any of this. While yes, I like better graphics, my point was that you were making generalized statements that others were calling you out on, and instead you seemed to just double down on it with your responses that I quoted.

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:37 pm That being said, only Wube knows how their customers play Factorio. Maybe most customers are like you and just like watching the little factories do their little things on the screen. If that's the case, then sure, maybe there's a case for layering on more GPU/CPU intensive graphics. My point is I think that most customers would probably prefer to have longer, more fun gameplay than prettier graphics. But heck what do I know?

Sadly, if you look at the steam achievements, most players do not build even a single locomotive, (48%) , only 62% only ever trigger an attack of the biters from pollution.
https://steamcommunity.com/stats/427520/achievements

So "most" player is a difficult to handle term, it could be 1000 players playing 1 hour and think one thing and give one feedback versus 10 players playing 1000 hour and giving different feedback. Of course those are extreme simplification but in the same reasonning only 3.6% players have ever produced more than 20 million green circuits so megabase are not that common to compare with 3.7% have built a locomotive in the first 90 minutes. ( to me 20 million you reach by accident when playing long game you have to reach it so i would expect much more than the loco in the first 90 minutes, which to me shows proficency = fast clicker+habits of starting new game or dedication = several attempt to get the achievement ).

I have no idea how significant are those result (only Wube knows) but my feeling is that i found it very low compared to what i expect from players of a video game, i would say triggering an attack of the biters from pollution is almost the equivalent of leaving the tutorial for some other games compared to what's left to discover in factorio you're just getting started and it's only +/60% of the players. Or should we say customer and reserve the word "player" or "gamer" to the human who actually played the game and not just tried it a little ?

I'm tempted to say that in factorio and other building game,(some unknown % of) invested players will build to the limit of their machines or the map size or object limit or maximum lengh or whatever limitation. It will then be seen as "ressource" you allocate to a project, and once you have experience you make sure you start project that you have the ressources for. So UPS is a limit for some players in factorio, sometimes it's also quantity of RAM/memory because of the save and huge maps very rarely GPU or video memory, even if you play with lots of mod on all sorts of old hardware from experience ( which seem a good point for HDR ) .

If you misscalculated you project you have to free some ressources, so in factorio, if you have this gigabase that is planned for 10K SPM and you only need to finish the oil processing part but you are at 55 UPS you may be tempted to cut on the graphics that's something which is possible in factorio. Turning off HDR would be tempting too in such case. Also removing all animation, reducing number of color and deleting decoratives, and only playing from the map mode. But then it's probably either a missmatch between project and ressources, or at the very least, not the intended experience but more one's personnal way of enjoying the game.

That beeing said there seem to be many different ways of implementing HDR which itself is not always meaning the same exact thing depending on which brand is using it. It doesn't help when many of the "information" are instead "advertising" with 2 pictures side by side one HDR the other not, and i'm watching both on my old laptop and i'm confused how it's supposed to show me one HDR and the other not , so i can be impressed. Maybe that kind of communication doesn't help HDR being something else than a marketing term for TV retailor compared to technical explanation which would help define the original question of what could one expect to see differently in the factorio game.

I played factorio when the graphics were not as good as now, and i didn't thought it wasn't good but i much prefer the newer entity that were redesigned, it will probably continue to follow and adapt to the modern aesthetics and techniques, but i can't help thinking there is a diminishing return in that Factorio isn't aiming at photo realism, nor is a 3D game with lots of shadowy/contrasty area. As such and a little similar to the 144 Hz refresh rate for scrolling the map, i found those need to be fully implemented = 100% of the work ,so that only part of their potential visual enhancement are added to the game. Meaning for other game it would make more sense imo, i would understand it for infiltration first person game, the kind of thing you want to play on very large screen, where the photorealism of the landscape is one the main criterion to differenciate one game over its concurent in the same genre. Such game would consider it a top priority to implement the latest thing that could give them an edge.

In Factorio, i think the perfomance and optimization is one of the main criterion for the game compared to other factory/automation/builder game. This maybe explain why HDR wasn't considered a priority, if at all (i'm just projecting hypothesis about why not HDR yet). The difficult task to balance a unique visual look and the very stable very optimized reference that it has become over the years. If you add a new thing, it can become the weakest link/ least optimized because those things takes time to test and modify and retest and so on.

Also some other consideration of why not HDR yet , Factorio is a game from 2014, and going the expansion route for 2024 ? , sure the game a evolve a lot, but this is different than a "new game" or factorio 2, which would convey the idea of a new product, less mature but with more recent technology, more like capitalizing on the stability of the engine it's the ressource/project thing again maybe adding HDR means reworking a lot of things, ( time cost, losing part of good working code and asset ) for not much gain ( game wasn't thought with this technology in mind as it appeared later vs new game that lose nothing and are thought with optimization for HDR in mind at the early stage of development).

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:37 pm If I wanted to stare at something with pretty colors, I'd just buy a lava lamp.

Bubble of color going up and down randomly ? I think one can do with combinators , especially with the 2.0 selector combinator and the "random" output although it is more common to have a text moving sideways it has lots of similarity . Maybe HDR could help making the display more visible if we make pixelated bubble ? That has nothing to do with megabasing.

But there is an appeal to me to those thing, little automation puzzle, combinator contraption, those are things players can do instead of megabasing, when you have lots and lots of playtime, it can be sometimes making lots of those puzzle, not just a "game" or a "factory" or a "map", but rather toying around in late game with new system rather than scaling, in such case UPS is of no concern and there little downside to prettier visual from the player side.

It has barely anything to do with the lava-lamp, except that sometimes i try to make my factory to be with pretty colors, it's part of the fun, like symetry is pretty or aligment. It takes quite some extra time to build so the expansion is slower and it preserve the ressource of my computer/ doesn't force me to restart game so often after i found the faster way to utilize all its computing power i force myself to more convoluted path , it feels like making a factory so you could watch it instead of a lava-lamp when you rework a build for it to look nicer or more compact for the sake of aesthetic. This is factorio too for me.

NineNine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:37 pm But heck what do I know?

Same here x) only giving my thoughts, i think it help associating a personnal dimension to statistics when some of the players in the % of achievement explain how they got here why how they feel.

Does anyone know whether it would be possible to make an HDR mod for Factorio? I haven’t modded Factorio before.

With some 3D games HDR is kind of simple to add, but I’m not familiar with how a 2D game engine would go about it.

I ask because I recently saw a vector scan display recently on an original Atari Asteroids cabinet. It kind of blew my mind. The vector scan display, aside from not working in pixels, also has the ability to display a very high dynamic range—essentially ‘proto-HDR.’ The laser shots are significantly brighter than the rest of the image, and while it’s such a simple trick and simple game, I was kind of blown away by how much visual interest it added to the game.

I’ve played a few other 2D HDR games, but the implementation was not good. Really it’s only 3D games that seem to get it right, Read Dead Redemption 2 and Dead Space remake come to mind in particular. But after seeing how much ‘proto-HDR’ does for such a primitive game Asteroids, it’s got me thinking it would add a very cool effect for some 2D games. Factorio just seems like a great candidate because there are so many small light-emissive objects in the game, down even to the tiny little red and green lights on circuits.