Nostalgia..

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brogild
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Nostalgia..

Post by brogild »

I'm finding myself sort of outside of the Factorio community at present because I decided to play with some old Factorio versions and have got stuck there - at 0.14 to be precise. The reason is that I quite like the Alien Artifact thing, it means I have to go and destroy some biter nests at some point, even though I avoid this in the earlier part of the game in order to keep evolution down. Without this the biters feel a bit irrelevant unless they attack you.

Maybe I'll get over this at some point, but at present I'm stuck in 2016/2017. My question is whether anyone else still likes the old stuff.

Kyralessa
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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by Kyralessa »

Have you considered updating and using a mod that restores the alien artifacts?

This one, for instance, says it makes the aliens drop artifacts which you can craft into space science packs, I guess as an alternative to launching rockets:

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/AlienSpaceScience

Serenity
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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by Serenity »

If you build big you still need to out and kill biters just for the necessary space

brogild
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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by brogild »

Kyralessa wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:31 pm
Have you considered updating and using a mod that restores the alien artifacts?

This one, for instance, says it makes the aliens drop artifacts which you can craft into space science packs, I guess as an alternative to launching rockets:

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/AlienSpaceScience
I may use this when I decide to move forwards again, the difference is that with this mod the Artifacts are optional, whereas before 0.15 it was a necessity to go out and grab at least 260 artifacts so you could carry on researching towards the Silo and Rocket. It makes a nice waypoint in the game that after about 10 hrs of intense building (I'm no speedrunner), I get to jump into the car and go and destroy a certain number of nests - then it's back home for more building..

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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by Amarula »

brogild wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:11 pm
I'm finding myself sort of outside of the Factorio community at present
But not really outside because there is no wrong way to play.
brogild wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:11 pm
at present I'm stuck in 2016/2017
I think I may download 0.14 and travel back in time to join you...
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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by brogild »

Serenity wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:51 pm
If you build big you still need to out and kill biters just for the necessary space
It was finding additional oil, rather than building space, that meant I had to expand. I used up most of the good stuff building my first rocket but then found out that even 30 wells pumping at 0.1/s couldn't produce enough plastic to improve the initial build rate much. So I went out and killed even more nests than the first 260, which made them evolve to the point that I needed a tank instead of just the car.

I think I just like that initial biter hunt, it's a satisfying waypoint before the silo and rocket build.
Serenity wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:51 pm
If you build big you still need to out and kill biters just for the necessary space

Tertius
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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by Tertius »

I got Factorio after the 1.1 release and just pondered a few minutes how it would be if I had to harvest stuff from biters. There are pro and contra arguments, and in the end I feel it more a chore than a challenge, because it isn't possible to automate this task if harvested stuff was continually required for ongoing research or whatever.

It would also make it impossible to advance gameplay if I chose to create a map without enemies, which I did for my first walkthrough and for some later as well, because I don't like the threat they are. I like to focus on factory design and building. Factory building is what I like most in Factorio. Keeping off enemies is somewhat distracting.

However, there could be more gameplay around enemies. Currently, they just breed, gather and attack. They only get on my nerves, nothing more. It's somewhat one-dimensional. If I were able to conquer them and get access to their well-guarded base where some interesting immovable optional building or technology is hidden, things could be different.

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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by brogild »

Amarula wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:05 pm
I think I may download 0.14 and travel back in time to join you...
It's an interesting experience. The secret is not to arouse the biters too much until you really need to get those 260 Artifacts, so at that point the nearby nests are not far evolved and can be destroyed by using the car and piercing ammo. (and plenty of health packs)
This also has the effect of creating a biggish space around your base that can be used for post-rocket expansion.

I've sort of felt that I was going against the developers by preferring an older version, but now that the game is mature, a Factorio Classic Club would not be out of place.

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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by brogild »

Tertius wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:22 pm
I got Factorio after the 1.1 release and just pondered a few minutes how it would be if I had to harvest stuff from biters. There are pro and contra arguments, and in the end I feel it more a chore than a challenge, because it isn't possible to automate this task if harvested stuff was continually required for ongoing research or whatever.

It would also make it impossible to advance gameplay if I chose to create a map without enemies, which I did for my first walkthrough and for some later as well, because I don't like the threat they are. I like to focus on factory design and building. Factory building is what I like most in Factorio. Keeping off enemies is somewhat distracting.

However, there could be more gameplay around enemies. Currently, they just breed, gather and attack. They only get on my nerves, nothing more. It's somewhat one-dimensional. If I were able to conquer them and get access to their well-guarded base where some interesting immovable optional building or technology is hidden, things could be different.
That's sort of the crux of my enjoyment of 0.14, after building the bulk of your base you had to go out and 'interact' with the biters to get their goodies. Not so much that they became overwhelming, just a few skirmishes and then back to base for tea and medals ( Blackadder IV)..
..It would also make it impossible to advance gameplay if I chose to create a map without enemies
You can't remove enemies in 0.14, so they will always be there for harvesting, but you can make them peaceful so that it's possible to get right up to a nest before you start shooting. Thankfully they don't become globally aggressive once aroused - so this can be done with every nest once newly spawned aggressors are killed.

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Silari
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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by Silari »

Tertius wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:22 pm
I got Factorio after the 1.1 release and just pondered a few minutes how it would be if I had to harvest stuff from biters. There are pro and contra arguments, and in the end I feel it more a chore than a challenge, because it isn't possible to automate this task if harvested stuff was continually required for ongoing research or whatever.
Research prior to 0.15 was limited - no infinite techs and not as many techs, and only 4 science pack types - 1 + 2 + 3 + alien. You really only needed to gather a few hundred artifacts and you could complete all the research. Nothing was continually required, because you finished science entirely (and rockets weren't even automatable yet, you had to manually launch them every time).

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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by brogild »

Silari wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:01 pm
Research prior to 0.15 was limited - no infinite techs and not as many techs, and only 4 science pack types - 1 + 2 + 3 + alien. You really only needed to gather a few hundred artifacts and you could complete all the research. Nothing was continually required, because you finished science entirely (and rockets weren't even automatable yet, you had to manually launch them every time).
The few hundred artifacts (260 without performance modules) are needed to research the Silo, beyond that quite a large number are needed to research all of the remaining technologies, also some of the later items (eg fusion reactor and Level 3 modules) need artifacts to build. I haven't quite got to those later stages and I suspect that biter evolution will become a big problem when I kill enough nests to get these.
There are no infinite technologies though.

The post-rocket scenario is limited though. It seems that Space science sort of filled the hole left by removal of artifacts and this is reflected in the mod mentioned above. What is missing from 0.14 is something to be obtained from launching a rocket ie, a motivation other than counting launches.

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ssilk
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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by ssilk »

I remember playing it and finally I managed to kill a big nest and I was so proud when I collected my stuff. I was looking how the labs proceed with this precious material. And then … the research stopped. I was missing one (1) dammed egg! :lol:

Ya, that was somehow cool and frustrating at the same time.
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brogild
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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by brogild »

ssilk wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:14 am
I remember playing it and finally I managed to kill a big nest and I was so proud when I collected my stuff. I was looking how the labs proceed with this precious material. And then … the research stopped. I was missing one (1) dammed egg! :lol:

Ya, that was somehow cool and frustrating at the same time.
It pays to calculate in advance how many Artifacts you need (260) before proceeding on to research the silo, then you can get them all in one go rather than having to go out on a hunt again.
It's possible to get by with less artifacts using productivity modules, but this is not an easy calculation, and 260 is not too hard to get.

It also pays to leave the nests alone until that one big hunt, just have walls and turrets to prevent incursions. This way the nearby nests are not too angry (or big) when I go after them.

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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by brogild »

As a few here pointed out, the post-rocket game in 0.14 is lacking, but it seems that several modders sought to address this.

The first thing I missed was an autolaunch for the rockets, but there are several mods to fix this and I've settled on ScoreExtended at it also provides some stats and removes the intrusive fixed banner that kept score, replacing it with a small icon.
The ion cannon and satellite-uplink provide good motivations to launch more stuff in addition to just keeping a score. I can't build these just yet because I need to collect a considerable number of artifacts to actually research and build them. I've got rid of all the easier biter colonies, so it looks like I'm going to have to really get to grips with conventional warfare to get these extra artifacts. After all this, Bob's and Angel's stuff offers more possibilities.

Did anyone feel that it's a bit weird making sulfur from Petroleum and water (alchemy?), I did and now thanks to a mod I mine it instead. This would feel like a cheat but mining takes effort too.

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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by astroshak »

I do not think that it is alchemical to obtain sulfur from PG and water. Consider that gasoline (which in some parts of the world is called ‘petrol’ which I can only presume is short for ‘petroleum’ - coincidence? I think not) contains sulfur. I’d guess the water is there to carry the sulfur out of the PG and then gets evaporated away, leaving the sulfur?

Not so fun fact : sanitary sewer systems, especially ones that have a lot of force mains dumping into them, contain sulfur. Being attacked by sulfuric acid (moist air, sulfur, you get sulfuric acid) is one of the reasons those underground systems deteriorate. So, be glad you're getting your sulfur from PG+water (or mined, from the mod) and not from having to gather up a lot of animal wastes!

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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by brogild »

astroshak wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:08 pm
I do not think that it is alchemical to obtain sulfur from PG and water. Consider that gasoline (which in some parts of the world is called ‘petrol’ which I can only presume is short for ‘petroleum’ - coincidence? I think not) contains sulfur. I’d guess the water is there to carry the sulfur out of the PG and then gets evaporated away, leaving the sulfur?

Not so fun fact : sanitary sewer systems, especially ones that have a lot of force mains dumping into them, contain sulfur. Being attacked by sulfuric acid (moist air, sulfur, you get sulfuric acid) is one of the reasons those underground systems deteriorate. So, be glad you're getting your sulfur from PG+water (or mined, from the mod) and not from having to gather up a lot of animal wastes!
Coal contains sulfur, although to varying degrees, and I suppose Crude Oil does too, but refined PG would be a pure hydrocarbon - I suppose that the sulfur goes out as waste product in the really heavy products (tar etc). I grew up in a coal mining region and nearly everyone used it for heating, so it doesn't seem too strange to obtain by-products (via coking) - this could even make it an early game resource.

I don't know where we obtain our pure sulfur from, but I have a mental image of it forming deposits around volcanic vents, therefore mining it seemed more realistic than manufacturing it.

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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by Silari »

brogild wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:23 pm
I don't know where we obtain our pure sulfur from, but I have a mental image of it forming deposits around volcanic vents, therefore mining it seemed more realistic than manufacturing it.
Majority of sulfur used today comes from byproducts of oil processing actually (second major source is metals processing). There used to be other ways from marshes (decaying vegetation gives off sulfur) and natural deposits, but nowadays it's mostly oil. Oil quality varies a lot, and some of it has significant sulfur content. If not removed during refining, I'd imagine most of it would make it's way in with the gasses since it's usually in the form of hydrogen sulfide - a gas. Really, the unrealistic part of it is not getting the gas back in a purified form.

Fun fact: Largest pyramids (technically currently ziggurats) in the world are in Canada, made entirely of elemental product as a byproduct of oil sands refining. Sulfur is so cheap and plentiful (since as a byproduct of oil production, we're making a LOT of it) that even giving it away free it's not worth transporting it to any where that could use it.

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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by brogild »

I got curious and looked this up, it seems that the sulfur is extracted because they have to for environmental reasons, there was probably a time when they left it in and therefore the use of these products was a lot smellier and bad for people's breathing.
It can probably be done with coal too but, being a solid, is more difficult.

So I don't think the sulfur manufacture is so strange now.

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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Yeah, just to chime in on the sulfur discussion, a couple years back I made a mod related to sulfur production from oil products. Based on research and talking with a couple others here on the forums, in the mod I shifted primary sulfur production from PG to heavy oil. Link is in my sig. If anyone has recommendations for improvement, I’m open to suggestions. :)

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Re: Nostalgia..

Post by brogild »

I would have initially thought that sulfur would find its way into the heavier products like bitumen, and therefore an easy way of disposal as it gets used on roads. Actually refining the stuff out was probably useful for a while but now I can see that it is just producing stockpiles (future archeologists might wonder over brimstone pyramids). There's probably a significant amount as hydrogen sulfide though.

Something else I find a bit archaic is requiring coal to make plastic. Following first rocket launch I mostly switch to using sold fuel from those tired, but still producing, oil wells and my original coal patches are pretty much depleted.
Perhaps an extra source of carbon is needed to create those extra long hydrocarbon chains, but I'd like alternative to coal such as solid fuel or even use the charcoal mod to use up those pesky wood stockpiles.

This is probably addressed in the more complex and game changing mods , but I haven't got to those yet.

ETA: I see you're a bit of a retro guy too Fury in making a mod to go back to pre-0.17.6 Oil, I'm used to that so would probably want to keep it. I like the Alien Artifacts which is why I play 0.14. I play the latest Factorio too and the change after 0.15 was enough to make them feel like different games.

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