Factorio Forums

Nazgutek wrote:

hitzu wrote:

Nazgutek wrote:Definitely a bug.

Changing the seed should be changing the procedural generation of biomes, water, ores, even if the map settings are the same.

If I provide a different seed, I expect to get a different map, not just a different starting position on the same map.

As an extreme example:

If the default map settings for Factorio result in a map that has no narrow landmass feature like the Panamian Isthmus, then no game of Factorio on the default map settings can occur on a narrow landmass feature like the Panamian Isthmus.

Given a true PRNG procedural generator, it should be possible to find many seeds that generate a narrow landmass feature like the Panamian Isthmus.

Imagine the number Pi. It is infinite and irrational number and it contains somewhere along itself any rational finite number you want. You just have to know the shift along this number that can be called "a seed". So, there's nothing wrong with the current map generator, it's just how things work. Next time just make sure you use very different seeds in order to get different places in the generated world.

I'm going to interpret what you posted as "On a map which does not have a feature like the Panamian Isthmus, it's just a matter of picking the right starting location seed to see the Panamian Isthmus".

I would reply further, but I'm worried you won't read it properly and just pull me down further into some kind of logical-fallacy-clusterstorm.

https://libraryofbabel.info/bookmark.cg ... ,rojbiv315
Look at the middle of the text. This is exactly your Panamian Isthmus on this wall of randomness.

Explanation https://youtu.be/GDrBIKOR01c?t=1022

TruePikachu wrote:On the other hand, remember that there are only 2^32 different seeds possible, not an infinite number, so it is acceptable if some types of desired features never appear, since it will be impossible to have every possible desired feature in a limited number of seeds.

Strictly speaking, yes, practically speaking, no, not at all. Even the one map we have so far already has a pretty nice variety of features to it, so having 2^32 possible maps (e.g. if seed actually determined map itself rather than start, would more than likely cover everything you could realistically want from a map).

Frightning wrote:

TruePikachu wrote:On the other hand, remember that there are only 2^32 different seeds possible, not an infinite number, so it is acceptable if some types of desired features never appear, since it will be impossible to have every possible desired feature in a limited number of seeds.

Strictly speaking, yes, practically speaking, no, not at all. Even the one map we have so far already has a pretty nice variety of features to it, so having 2^32 possible maps (e.g. if seed actually determined map itself rather than start, would more than likely cover everything you could realistically want from a map).

I'm putting that fact forward so that people remember that, even if these sorts of ideas get implemented, there are still going to be technical limitations which prevent the full effects from being apparent.
It is literally impossible to have an infinite number of different maps on current-gen computer hardware, and most likely the next few generations as well.

From a practical standpoint, remember there are going to be rules* about how a map is generated, and those rules could prevent odd maps from ever appearing. As an example, if a rule was added which prevents islands from forming, then no map generated would have an island.

*These "rules" aren't actually defined as such, but are rather side effects to the algorithms implemented, so the output isn't just noise of sorts.

TruePikachu wrote:

Frightning wrote:

TruePikachu wrote:On the other hand, remember that there are only 2^32 different seeds possible, not an infinite number, so it is acceptable if some types of desired features never appear, since it will be impossible to have every possible desired feature in a limited number of seeds.

Strictly speaking, yes, practically speaking, no, not at all. Even the one map we have so far already has a pretty nice variety of features to it, so having 2^32 possible maps (e.g. if seed actually determined map itself rather than start, would more than likely cover everything you could realistically want from a map).

I'm putting that fact forward so that people remember that, even if these sorts of ideas get implemented, there are still going to be technical limitations which prevent the full effects from being apparent.
It is literally impossible to have an infinite number of different maps on current-gen computer hardware, and most likely the next few generations as well.

From a practical standpoint, remember there are going to be rules* about how a map is generated, and those rules could prevent odd maps from ever appearing. As an example, if a rule was added which prevents islands from forming, then no map generated would have an island.

*These "rules" aren't actually defined as such, but are rather side effects to the algorithms implemented, so the output isn't just noise of sorts.

It will never be possible to have infinitely many maps. This is because the universe we live in is finite. What's important, is that the possibilities that the map gen can make will 'run the gambit' of what we would expect from landforms composed of the basic building blocks this game uses.

Frightning wrote: This is because the universe we live in is finite.

You are sure about this? I mean even the greatest Physisists are not sure about weather the universe in finite or infinite .

AntiElite wrote:

Frightning wrote: This is because the universe we live in is finite.

You are sure about this? I mean even the greatest Physisists are not sure about weather the universe in finite or infinite .

It's pretty sure to say that at least our universe is finite.

But even if it is... nobody knows (and probably nobody ever will) what's beyond the edge of our universe. If there are other universes with entirely different physics contained in other bubbles right next to ours or if there's just plain nothing or the end of our universe being its own beginning in something like a hyperspace fashion where everything wraps around ending in itself.

I somehow have to think about that one Futurama episode where they are traveling to the edge of the universe where you can look to an altnernate universe basically containing the exact same shit as ours, just with minor differences.

But then again lately I have come more and more to believe that it probably works similar to Loop Quantum Gravity theories predict, just taking it a step further by saying our universe is a cellular automaton. Probably our entire universe is just an asynchronous and self-expanding simulation, a computer program running on an unimaginably huge computer system sitting on the desk right next to "God" (If you actually believe in such an entity), who probably lost interest in his ant farm a long, long time ago. A lot of the stuff happening in Quantum Physics and also a lot of stuff happening in General Relativity points towards that being the case in my opinion. Where General relativity is basically just the effect of our universe probably just pushing the upper limits of the simulation in some cases (like Black holes probably are doing constantly) in terms of instructions per second, where the hardware our universe is running on just can't keep up the pace and that's why spacetime is locally warped and bend so that not the entire simulation has to be slowed down to the slowest link in the chain (= asynchronous computer model). On the other side stuff like the uncertainty principle and a lot of the other weird currently unexplainable stuff in Quantum physics probably just being the side effect of pushing the lower limits of the simulation, much like a feedback loop of the simulation where the underlying program just doesn't yet know the outcome of things until they are happening and has to assign values according to specific rules on the go while they are still being queried. That may or may not involve random number generators, so it's not really sure if our universe is absolutely predictable, but even if there is some random factor attached to it we have absolutely no influence on it. With other words things as "free will" don't exist in my opinion and they are merely illusions due to the immense complexity of the underlying system. Sounds weird but that's what I am thinking.

AntiElite wrote:

Frightning wrote: This is because the universe we live in is finite.

You are sure about this? I mean even the greatest Physisists are not sure about weather the universe in finite or infinite .

For the observable universe, yes (and the physicists agree), due to how causality works, that's all that really matters. The notion of anything 'outside' of the observable universe might not even be a meaningful idea (or it totally could be, we have no way of testing it).

Frightning wrote:The notion of anything 'outside' of the observable universe might not even be a meaningful idea (or it totally could be, we have no way of testing it).

I guess that's where religion, philosophy and metaphysics start because we will probably never be able to scientifically research that. I even have the strong feeling that we probably won't even find a way to leave this solar system, at least not the way they show in SciFi movies/series.

Ignoring that there might be something beyond our universe would not really be scientific either. That's as if nobody would have dealt with the question what's beyond the Atlantic Ocean before discovering America.

At least our universe is probably there for some reason... because I honestly don't believe that it's just there by pure accident or because of its statistical probability as one of the possible outcomes in a billion of parallel universes. For that to be true there are way too many hints that our universe was somehow "constructed" or "designed" with some thought behind it because of certain mathematical and physical laws and constants. Which would imply that there is something beyond our universe because one can't construct something from "nothing".

Ultimate questions of life and universe aside, while 2000 tiles is a formidable distance, the shift range up to 2000 chunks would better appease my quirks.

Also it seems weird to me that we require a sequence of 30 random characters with no apparent order in them to encode just two numbers of up to four digits each. While I see that equivalence between seeded and unseeded launches becomes trivial this way, the ease of use clearly suffers in comparison with entering the shift value directly.

Adil wrote:Ultimate questions of life and universe aside, while 2000 tiles is a formidable distance, the shift range up to 2000 chunks would better appease my quirks.

Also it seems weird to me that we require a sequence of 30 random characters with no apparent order in them to encode just two numbers of up to four digits each. While I see that equivalence between seeded and unseeded launches becomes trivial this way, the ease of use clearly suffers in comparison with entering the shift value directly.

The shift value is chunks not tiles.

Is it possible to map this "Only one map", 2^32, if I keep on going in one direction, what kind of computer hardware would best support such a quest the longest?

noobula wrote:Is it possible to map this "Only one map", 2^32, if I keep on going in one direction, what kind of computer hardware would best support such a quest the longest?

Something with a lot of RAM and a fast CPU to generate map.

Rseding91 wrote:

noobula wrote:Is it possible to map this "Only one map", 2^32, if I keep on going in one direction, what kind of computer hardware would best support such a quest the longest?

Something with a lot of RAM and a fast CPU to generate map.

Seems like a nice first mod to make. It would be useful for looking at how the mapgen works and so that I can more quickly find a combination of world settings that I want to try.
Do the devs already have such a tool that generates something like a JGEP2000 (think Google Maps style streaming) image from the initial world settings and random seed?

bk5115545 wrote: Do the devs already have such a tool that generates something like a JGEP2000 (think Google Maps style streaming) image from the initial world settings and random seed?

There's mod named "factorio google maps" or something.

What about modded ores and stuff? Such as Bob's, 5Dim's, Angel's etc...

Well it would still be deterministic if you had the seeded RNG influence the ore patch generation. Whichever global factors you use there can be extracted from the RNG. I see no reason in always having the same map.

Off Topic:

I love Factorio. But, I have to say, I also love the fact that my fellow players are the biggest bunch of techno-nerd, (meta)physics geek, OCD geniuses that I have ever come across. You guys rock, and I love you all