Combat system far too fast?

[Balinor]

I think a large part of the problem with gun turrets is the ammo cost and size also. A magazine that only holds 10 shots? Maybe for pistols but for turrets or for the machine guns I want around 30. Piercing ammo? Still too expensive for what it is. Maybe adding a third level of ammo would alleviate some of these problems but then we'd be in the territory of making laser too weak even though it doesn't require ammo. Tough bit of balancing that.

[ssilk]

Yes. Gun turrets. I thought a lot about them this morning.

What I really don't like is to fill them by hand. I think this is the most unfair point, compared with lasers, because
- I have to pre-produce the ammo at a time I don't have enough resources,
- it takes some time to fill the turrets by hand and
- it takes time watch about them and much more to refill them.

So when coming to automatic fill I need
- belts (much belts),
- inserters (ok, I can reuse the burner inserters, but then I shift only the problem)
- so I also need power - even if the turret itself doesn't need any, and
- this immense amount of bullets. Which is really unfair, compared with lasers.

Again: I have to pre-produce that all, including the magazines, even if I never use them.

And when coming to piercing bullets, the needed amount of resources get really too high. I played now several games in normal mode and I found me two times in the situation, that the piercing bullets eats the whole production. I was really a dead end and I had to go back to an earlier save to finish the game.

Currently I gave up using gun turrets.

Suggestions:
- gun turret have an inserter and a solar cell which is able to feed the inbuilt inserter during day. Of course this costs more resources.
- a second stack, which is filled automatically with piercing ammo.
- I like the suggestions to have more shots per magazine. Because with that auto fill can be reduced to 5 without care.
- Piercing bullets should be made out of normal, so it could be reused. Dunno, why they need copper... Is there a plan for more?

[Garm]

I don't believe merging 3 different buildings into one is a good idea. This game revolves around modularity, where each piece does one task and only one. It is player task to orchestrate them into one working complex.


I see no problem with loading turrets manually in early game - since i go around loading other buildings with coal anyways.


The turret ammo size and slot capacity is a problem yes - and i think it might be better to simply introduce turret only ammo, which player can't use. It will have bigger durability (more shots per round) and smaller stack size. Gun turrets may still use player ammo to make early game easier.

[Nemoder]

Why not swap lasers and gun turrets in the tech tree? Make lasers a bit weaker/shorter range and then make guns a bit stronger for later in the game when you can afford the ammo.

[ssilk]

I don't believe merging 3 different buildings into one is a good idea. This game revolves around modularity, where each piece does one task and only one. It is player task to orchestrate them into one working complex.

Of course it isn't. But I don't won't to orchestrate 100-400 turrets. Not fun. It takes more than the double time to place them (bring the belt to them, place power poles, place them).

So this idea goes only around the problems. But I don't have a better yet.

I see no problem with loading turrets manually in early game - since i go around loading other buildings with coal anyways.

You don't see it? Well, I made all that. Many times. I can point to the post above (pre-production etcetera.) but the point is, that they don't bring any benefit. In the time I need to built them, make ammo, watch over them, etc. I have finished research for laser turrets and place them, because I spare a lot of time and resources.

The turret ammo size and slot capacity is a problem yes

No, it's the whole packet; it doesn't bring the game forward and brings new players into a direction, which leads eventually into a dead end.

@nemroder: yes, that could be a good idea and it doesn't change too much.

I feel, that the devs thought something, when they designed it like so, but what?

[LoSboccacc]

I agree with most things but this

I have finished research for laser turrets and place them, because I spare a lot of time and resources.

I got more than on occasion where biters started showing up well before I even finished the turret research.

[Garm]

Of course it isn't. But I don't won't to orchestrate 100-400 turrets. Not fun. It takes more than the double time to place them (bring the belt to them, place power poles, place them).

So this idea goes only around the problems. But I don't have a better yet.

Then we need large ordnance defence systems, that players don't need 100-400 of.

- Maybe 2x2 or 3x3 cannons that pack a lot of punch over long distances.

- Or twin (or quadruple)-mounted machine gun towers that rain lead in insane amounts at very close range.

- Missile platforms, that deliver explosive or incendiary payloads for area destruction.

increased range on some of these would allow them to be placed deeper inside allowing more space to machine guns up front.

[ssilk]

I agree with most things but this

I have finished research for laser turrets and place them, because I spare a lot of time and resources.

I got more than on occasion where biters started showing up well before I even finished the turret research.

Hm. Perhaps this was, because I made my first steps very carefully? Just yesterday I begun a new game, in which I need to start very expansive and here I need to use some gun turrets (about 10).

But 10 gun turrets are not so a big problem. The problem begins, when I need to expand more. Then this kind of building up takes just too much time, because of the pure mass of things to built. (The same problem as with the solar cells/accus).

And the build up would be much, much easier, if we had a copy/paste or macro-system. Search for blueprints and macros. This influences so many things, because it would speed up building masses of complex stuff by factor 10 or more, when bots are able to built the stuff.

@Garm: other weapons, yes, but they should come much later into the game. My main issue about this is, that we are in the early game and the gun turrets are so complicated here, that it is a good strategy to avoid building them.

[Balinor]

Turret only ammo but allowing turrets to use normal ammo also would definitely alleviate some of the issues. I also like the idea of having an inserter with a solar cell to power it. Allowing normal ammo to be reused by turning it into piercing ammo is again another good suggestion, but keep the option to make piercing ammo without the normal also otherwise it's just adding complexity where it's not needed. Laser turrets should not come before normal turrets as it just doesn't feel like it fits in that part of the research chain and the real problem is the cost (time and resources) with managing/building/supplying a normal turret system.

I'm currently mainly playing with the spawns ignoring me unless I attack them because that early part of the game is just not fun for me in its current form. This leads to the problem though that with the challenge removed so does some of the longevity. I'm not sure how to fix that though.

[Imp0815]

I saw this problem early on. I also made some suggestions that could change the way the combat is played in Factorio. Read them, be enlightened and give me your feedback(Especially in the "Fight" Thread):

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =20#p10900

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... t=30#p9045

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =20#p10954

[Balinor]

I saw this problem early on. I also made some suggestions that could change the way the combat is played in Factorio. Read them, be enlightened and give me your feedback(Especially in the "Fight" Thread):

Be enlightened? Interesting turn of phrase to use I guess.

To the crux of the matter though, you are talking about changing/adding mechanics to the game whereas we are more talking about solutions to the existing mechanics so it's very much apples and oranges. While I'm sure your ideas for the research have some merit they just don't sounds appealing to me at all.

[LoSboccacc]

Factorio mostly is a tower defence in my imagination with an overly complex resource system.

I'd just like to see more ways to keep the creepers at bay like zapping turrets to slow them and rocket turrets for crowd control. And a way to prioritize targets.

[Darthlawsuit]

I think it is fine. It is fast right now because the game is incomplete. I'm sure once more features are added it will start to feel slow.

[TGS]

Factorio mostly is a tower defence in my imagination with an overly complex resource system.

I'd just like to see more ways to keep the creepers at bay like zapping turrets to slow them and rocket turrets for crowd control. And a way to prioritize targets.

And this imo is part of the problem. It shouldn't be a 'tower offense' game imo. The player should have multiple avenues to take. And they shouldn't be forced to go all the way up some robust complex tech tree to have a hope in hell at being viable at at.

Personally the 'turret rush' concept is just bad design. Using turrets offensively doesn't make any sense.

I would honestly like to suggest another vehicle in the game. The tank. Slower than the car (Slower than the faster biters) but the armor is much heavier. Giving non-power armored players an offensive option that isn't building turrets in the biters face. The main fact is that the player character is very very weak and vulnerable until very late in the game. And in the playing I've done I've found that unless you turret spam and play defensively, or turret rush/creep you really are at a significant disadvantage. I really don't know what the OP was meaning specifically by combat being fast but in my experience it isn't so much the speed that is the issue. The durability of the PC is the issue. The fact that the main viable options pre-endgame is using turrets offensively. Or hit and run tactics with the car which... is annoying.

So introduce the tank. Unlike the car it isn't meant for travel, it is meant for assault. Tanking. You use it the same way as the car but it is much tougher. Able to stand up to the tougher biters. The balance aspect of it will be that because it is so slow it will be easily surrounded. And if you don't have the offensive power you will be surrounded, the tank will slowly die and when it does you as the PC will be surrounded and killed very quickly.

[slpwnd]

So introduce the tank.

The tank is on the list. So far we have pictured it pretty much the way you described it. Though not sure if it will make it to the next release ...

[Darthlawsuit]

So introduce the tank.

The tank is on the list. So far we have pictured it pretty much the way you described it. Though not sure if it will make it to the next release ...

The tank is really needed with these large biters. I was trying to attack an enemy base that kept breaking through my defenses.... Not even 60 laser turrents and rocket spam is enough to keep the enemy waves back. It looks like a zerg SWARM. A giant wave of blue, brown, and red. Thankfully one of my turrents is bugged so it is at 0 HP and still alive, they are all attacking it. I dunno how to break through =/ but a tank battalion would work decently.

Hopefully we get Mechs and other future gadgets later as well

[JackGruff]

In the end of day, I think what is important is that we have a variety of options. More options means more players will find their own way of handling the enemy. Put it this way, you have many ways to make a factory, but very few to take down a base.

The tank is on the list.

Will it be able to accept modules like armour can? I was thinking of being able to give the tank a portable fusion reactor and personal laser defence so that it can pick off smaller biters while you aim the main gun. It could have a much bigger inventory than the armour.

[TGS]

In the end of day, I think what is important is that we have a variety of options. More options means more players will find their own way of handling the enemy. Put it this way, you have many ways to make a factory, but very few to take down a base.

The tank is on the list.

Will it be able to accept modules like armour can? I was thinking of being able to give the tank a portable fusion reactor and personal laser defence so that it can pick off smaller biters while you aim the main gun. It could have a much bigger inventory than the armour.

It would be too hard to balance if it were modular in that sense. Either there isn't enough module space to really be useful, or the tank becomes more powerful and potent than the power armor mk2 which then would require it to be placed high in the tech tree, negating the entire point behind it. It should be the next level of vehicle basically. Maybe requiring 100 red 100 green and 50 blue science packs. That way it would still rely fairly heavily on the players offensive ability. (IE bigger guns). The main point imo is that it gives the player durability while they are assaulting. It shouldn't be an iwin button or make you invincible. But it should give you the ability to get in close to the bases and do some significant damage before needing to retreat. Unlike the car where you are constantly doing drive bys lol.

[FreeER]

It would be too hard to balance if it were modular in that sense. Either there isn't enough module space to really be useful, or the tank becomes more powerful and potent than the power armor mk2 which then would require it to be placed high in the tech tree, negating the entire point behind it....

Not necessarily, it should be relatively simple to make the tank not much further up the tech tree than the car and still be modular. You just need to make the modules a different tech tree than the power armor tree. There could be 'armor plating' modules that increase the durability (or resistances) but are quite large and limit the number of other modules that can be added as a side effect. The key is that the tank not be an 'iwin button'. As such a tank would require most of the power from a fusion generator to move (heavy due to even the basic armor plating, adding extra armor modules would consume even more power), or there could be two tanks one modular and one that runs on coal (produces a relatively large amount of pollution) and is slower, but a bit cheaper and lower in the tech tree.

The main point I'm trying to make is that the tank (with optimal modules) should be more powerful than a modular power suit (with optimal modules), but it should require separate (and possibly longer/more expensive) lines of research requiring the player to decide which they want first; a slow slow vehicle that makes it difficult to die and can wipe out enemy bases easily but that you do not want to use near your own base due to accidental damage (explosive rounds) OR a modular powersuit that can protect you at all times (even inside their own base), but is less powerful overall. Of course given time you are able to research everything, but if you think about that you might as well complain about the combat robots being too powerful

[LoSboccacc]

That would make the tank yet another high tech weapon.

We need something useful in the early game for small bases as well.

Something that you can use to go against three spawners and a couple big worms that sits between you and your first largish ore deposit.

Something that allow players to play on any map, instead of just regenerating until you have enough ore near to tech al the way to fusion or be screwed.