I Miss Alien Artifacts!

[Nasabot]

Game Theory:
A game consists of "systems" which interact with each other.
The art of game design is to connect different systems in a smart and interesting way.
Every system can be viewed as a blackbox with input and output.

The system "enemies" is currently missing input and/or output and therefor is also unable to interact with other systems properly.
Leaving the system enemies as it is now is definitly WRONG game design.

Example of how the uncomplete enemy system has harmful effects on other parts of the game:

Enemies->Pollution->Modules
Or speaking: Why would you want to use green modules if pollution does not matter as you can play without enemies?

Before somebody argues: "But you can play on peaceful anyway, Muh"

Yes, you can, but this does not mean that the system enemies is not integral part of factorio.

Imagine you can change a setting so that you can play without items: would you argue that the existance of such a setting makes the system "items" optional? Of course not.
Factorios exists with the system enemies, therefor the system enemies must be considered as integral part of factorio.

[Mathematician]

Factorio exists with the system enemies, therefore the system enemies must be considered as integral part of Factorio.

Well, I would not say that every system existing in game must be integral.
This quote for example (from FFF-275):

This makes it even more clear that the Military science pack is a separate branch of science. It depends on the progression of your factory, but its sole purpose is to deal with the distraction - the enemies - from your main goal.

clearly shows that the 'enemies' system is not inseparable part of a gameplay (in devs eyes).
I would even say more. Enemies can be turned off without breaking the gameplay, therefore system 'enemies' is NOT an integral part of Factorio.
Pollution is not the only input. Time (aka player's proficiency(?) in setting up factory) and player's agression towards aliens can impact them even more than pollution itself. Depends on a playstyle, I guess. And the output: it's mentioned 'distraction'.
Allien artiffacts used to be the other output. I haven't played the game back then yet but I think its removal was for better. The soul of the game is automation. Active hunting for alien nests could be automated (if that was developement goal) but what would be the point of enemies at all if you could just send some robots to destroy closest nest and negate need for any defence perimeter you build by the time of getting these robots?

On a side note: there is also other group of enemies: trees. Pollution kills trees. You can't play without trees (you need one tree to start science progress). Also green modules reduce power consumption. In fact THAT is their primary function. You use it to keep your factory working longer on your coal/uranium if these are scare in the world.

The point is we are talking about sandbox mode. Let's not force people to fight if that is not what they want to do.

I don't miss them at all and I would not like it if they made "hunting" a required part of the game again to get to certain upgrades.

I guess that in 0.18 the campaign can use some pollution/enemies management as a mission(s) goal.

[5thHorseman]

The system "enemies" is currently missing input and/or output and therefor is also unable to interact with other systems properly.
Leaving the system enemies as it is now is definitly WRONG game design.

I don't know exactly what you mean by input and output. Do you mean interaction with the rest of the game?

If so, then I disagree. They interact a lot with the game. On default settings you MUST barricade your base from them and you MUST claim land from them or you will lose.

Over the course of a campaign you better input a lot of ammo into them or they'll output a lot of damage on your factory.

I don't see why this amount of interaction isn't enough, given that this is not a tactical fighting game.

[BlueTemplar]

Active hunting for alien nests could be automated (if that was developement goal) but what would be the point of enemies at all if you could just send some robots to destroy closest nest and negate need for any defence perimeter you build by the time of getting these robots?

I believe that was the reason for the introduction of Artillery in 0.16 ?
(Even though Alien Artifacts were removed in 0.15...)

[BlueTemplar]

Not that they're no longer a threat (Though you do get better over time in destroying these buggers), but their genocide feels less of use...

On default settings you MUST barricade your base from them and you MUST claim land from them or you will lose.

Well, on default settings they become very easy to deal with once you understand how pollution affects them.
And you would have to go out of your way to lose (=not being able to expand anymore), considering the plentiful resources available at start.
Even on a DeathWorld, they become a mere nuisance by the point that you get to oil in the late green science...

[Zavian]

And you would have to go out of your way to lose (=not being able to expand anymore),

I've seen quite a few posts over the years from new players who are struggling to get oil up and running 30-40 hours in. No idea what their evolution was at that time, but if they also need to kill too many spawners to get to an oil patch, then they might well be approaching a can't win situation. Now for an experienced player to take that long to get oil up and running would be unusual (in vanilla, and without a crazy research cost multiplier), but I'm not sure it would be unusual for a new player playing their first game, especially if they like to tweak and fiddle their existing base.

[BlueTemplar]

I'm specifically talking about players that aren't newbies anymore though.
And you say "over the years" - but AFAIK the map generation has changed (sometimes dramatically) over the versions, with some of the earlier versions where you could have the map almost completely covered by spawners !
We'll see how 0.17 changes things !

[CDarklock]

The system "enemies" is currently missing input and/or output and therefor is also unable to interact with other systems properly.

What is the proper interaction of "enemies" with other systems?

Currently, the "enemies" system interacts with the player by producing unexpected events and arbitrary obstacles. The oil field closest to my base had a sizeable enemy base plopped in the middle of it, and several more very close by. If I expected to run a relatively unmolested drilling operation in that field, I needed to eliminate a substantial number of enemies, which meant I needed to invest significant research into military technologies.

Even after eliminating those bases, the other side of my base had encroaching enemies that raided relatively frequently. I didn't mind, because I had installed enough turrets to cut them down before they did much damage, and eventually I upgraded to laser turrets. And then I learned a very difficult lesson about "long pipes with no inline pumps," namely that they don't work, so a large part of my consolidated power generation went offline. The power went out, the laser turrets went down, the biters chewed through the wall and started rampaging through my steam engines.

This emergency forced me to drop everything and deal with the problem. I had to go over to the area where the biters broke through, kill them, replace and repair broken material, and then try to figure out why my boilers had no water so my engines had no steam. Ultimately I just gave up and started moving the boilers and engines right next to the lake, which eventually restored reliable power.

I suggest that both of these scenarios would have been less interesting - producing a worse game - in the absence of the "enemies" system. In what way is this not a proper interaction?