Revisiting Frame Rate Lock

Anything that prevents you from playing the game properly. Do you have issues playing for the game, downloading it or successfully running it on your computer? Let us know here.
Post Reply
User avatar
MrGrim
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:58 pm
Contact:

Revisiting Frame Rate Lock

Post by MrGrim »

I may have accidentally ncero'd an older thread on this, so I deleted that reply and am just starting a new topic. I know the frame rate lock has been covered before, but I thought I'd bring it up once more with a different perspective. As some have said before, "Factorio is not CS:GO", and I think 60fps is perfectly sufficient as far as gameplay is concerned. However, it was my desire to do something about how badly LCD's blur with 2D panning that led me to want to run at a higher frame rate.

Factorio is a worst case scenario for LCD sample and hold displays when it comes to eye tracking motion blur during the full screen panning motion when moving around. With Factorio I'm almost always trying to look at something other than the character when moving around, and it's a hot blurry mess on my Dell U3011 until I stop moving. To be clear I'm not talking about blur from slow pixel response times. I'm talking about eye tracking motion blur (see: http://www.blurbusters.com/faq/oled-motion-blur/).

I'd been eyeing new displays with mitigation technologies such as Lightboost, ULMB, or the BenQ motion blur reduction all of which rely on backlight strobing (sometimes called black frame insertion). One problem with this technique is that you can't really apply it at anything less than about 85Hz (ideally 100+ Hz, really) without introducing significant flickering.

Up until I started playing Factorio I didn't really consider blur much of a problem; at least not enough of one to justify the expense. However, since 2D panning brings out the worst of any monitor I really started noticing it when playing so started looking around. That led me to information on the 85Hz and 100Hz cut off's common in monitors that employ the technique, and that led me to think "well, then I'll play with the monitor set to 120Hz and voila!" However, that then led me to descriptions of how backlight strobing causes double image artifacts if frame repeating is used so, 60fps @ 120Hz + backlight strobing would not actually work out so well.

So, with that said, allowing Factorio to support at the very least panning at a higher framerate would be a real boon to people with displays capable of this style of blur reduction. Would high FPS panning be doable without too much trouble? Internally the game can still operate at 60 ticks. Then, maybe later down the line, specific fluid animations like items on belts could also be supported.

Really, I just dream of a blur free Factorio experience. That would be really awesome and achievable, but >60FPS is a requisite.

Also, even outside of backlight strobing fps/refresh mismatches do still cause some artifacts that are unavoidable for people with high refresh rate displays. To help understand what 60fps on a 120hz or 144hz display would look like you can use the 60/30fps comparisons in the following pages on a 60Hz display:

http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates
http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates-text

So no, Factorio is not CS:GO, but that doesn't make it immune to bluring problems on basically any LCD display and stuttering and double image problems on higher end displays. Those of us who have or want to get such displays to help with the blur would just like a little love is all. :) I hope the devs haven't given up on the idea of completely decoupling output from game logic.

Thanks for hearing me out.

*EDIT* The blur busters site is down at the time of this writing. The google cache page is here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

Also, the topic is OLED, but the same principles apply to LCD.

Rseding91
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 13202
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:23 am
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Frame Rate Lock

Post by Rseding91 »

I have a Dell U3011 myself and I experience no such blur when moving. Are you sure your monitor isn't defective or something?
If you want to get ahold of me I'm almost always on Discord.

User avatar
MrGrim
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Frame Rate Lock

Post by MrGrim »

Fairly certain. No blur on a LCD just isn't possible. Pick any object on screen, zoom in somewhat so it pans across the screen at a decent clip when you move, then move and try to track that object with your eyes as it moves across the screen. On any sample and hold style display the object will become blurry compared to how it looks not moving. When you follow a real moving object with your eyes it doesn't become blurry. It's a perceptual artifact of displays that hold a light level of a pixel for an entire frame which is why even OLED's with their near instantaneous response times still suffer motion resolution problems.

Even the fastest LCD ever benchmarked can't prevent it. See the pursuit camera test images for yourself here:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/con ... tm#pursuit

Bonus, there's also a pursuit camera image taken with ULMB enabled that demonstrates how effective the tech is.

You can read more about how the pursuit camera test is done here (it's pretty cool stuff, actually):

http://www.blurbusters.com/motion-tests/pursuit-camera/

There are some reference images for what is typical of monitors of certain types here:

https://pcmonitors.info/wp-content/uplo ... graphs.png

I'm more than happy to discuss the details of this, but please don't think I'm just making it up. This is a thing:

http://www.testufo.com/#test=eyetracking
http://www.testufo.com/#test=photo&phot ... 0&height=0

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-t ... n-gtg.html
http://www.cnet.com/news/black-frame-in ... o-lcd-tvs/
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/motion_blur.htm
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00 ... slides.pdf
http://gizmodo.com/290237/the-trouble-w ... z-solution (discusses an alternate solution some TV makers use)

And on and on.

Whether it bothers someone or not or if you even notice is a personal thing. Some people don't notice, some don't mind it, for others it can go as far as causing vertigo. I just want to show that there are reasons to support uncapped framerates outside of direct gameplay implications. Backlight strobing at 100+ Hz produces the highest motion resolution you'll ever see on a LCD.

I'm just asking please consider it, is all.

Thanks

*EDIT*

Just curious, some of my friends with a Dell U3011 often discuss the IPS glow of this display. One swears he can't see it, another sees it but it doesn't bother him. I came from a SPVA display and witnessing IPS glow on my U3011 was the first time I'd ever even heard of the effect. Do you notice it, and does it bother you at all?

User avatar
bobingabout
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 7352
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 1:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Frame Rate Lock

Post by bobingabout »

I must admit that sometimes I get the "Oh god! I can't stand to look at the screen!" feeling while playing factorio while moving, though that's usually while traveling fast, like on a train, or what I have several exo-skeletons in my suit.

I am curious as to what this IPS glow effect is, since I do have an IPS screen myself.

EDIT: I looked up IPS glow... apparently it's an issue with LED side-lights? Well, mine is an old fashioned IPS, it has a cold cathode backlight, cold being an ill-worded name for it, because it gets really damn hot when in use. It also takes a while (up to 10 mins) to warm up when you turn it on too, which is a strange thing to see on any screen, much less a fairly modern one.

Needless to say, I do not suffer from IPS Glow, but it is something I should watch out for.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.
I also have a Patreon.

User avatar
MrGrim
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Frame Rate Lock

Post by MrGrim »

bobingabout wrote: I am curious as to what this IPS glow effect is, since I do have an IPS screen myself.

EDIT: I looked up IPS glow... apparently it's an issue with LED side-lights? Well, mine is an old fashioned IPS, it has a cold cathode backlight, cold being an ill-worded name for it, because it gets really damn hot when in use. It also takes a while (up to 10 mins) to warm up when you turn it on too, which is a strange thing to see on any screen, much less a fairly modern one.
IPS glow is actually unrelated to the type of backlight. A lot of people confuse it with backlight bleed so there is a lot of confusion about it on the internet. Basically what happens is at certain angles (around 30ish or so degrees to maybe 45ish) the panels let a lot of the backlight through and it appears as a pale glow.

It also depends on the age of your monitor. Many years ago A-TW (Advanced True White) filters were commonly used to mitigate the effect, but panel manufacturers stopped including them because while they reduced the effect they introduced a color shift to it when you did see it. Whether or not you notice it in every day use depends on how much time you spend on very dark screens (e.g. maybe a space sim or very dark lit areas in some games), how dark your room is, how large your display is, and how far you sit from it. My display is a 30" 16:10 and I sit 26" away from it which is close enough that the angle from my eyes to each corner is large enough to see it.

See: https://pcmonitors.info/lg/lg-display-p ... r-returns/

Also a good picture of the effect here: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/images/asus ... 120388.JPG

I nearly returned my U3011 until I learned this was "normal". It bothers me so much I've been considering a move to TN panels, but in reality what I want more than anything is a proper 144Hz 1440p g-sync enabled VA panel. The only place VA is being used right now is those weird ultra wide panels people seem to love, and only because IPS glow in ultra wides is so bad that people kept returning monitors claiming they were defective and VA lends itself to curved displays more easily.

Quazil
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:47 am
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Frame Rate Lock

Post by Quazil »

Tl;DR
A higher frame-rate cannot help an ~~archaic~~ low-quality LCD that blurs.

...
The Dell U3011 is a 7ms IPS.
IPS is generally not recommended for gaming but they make some special low-blur IPS monitors for gaming.
This is most likely a design "defect" in the monitor that cannot be fixed (it was probably tweaked for maximum contrast and color range and accepted blurring as an artifact.)

As a general rule do not buy Dell for gaming (and that includes Alienware).

User avatar
MrGrim
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Frame Rate Lock

Post by MrGrim »

Quazil wrote:Tl;DR
A higher frame-rate cannot help an ~~archaic~~ low-quality LCD that blurs.

...
The Dell U3011 is a 7ms IPS.
IPS is generally not recommended for gaming but they make some special low-blur IPS monitors for gaming.
This is most likely a design "defect" in the monitor that cannot be fixed (it was probably tweaked for maximum contrast and color range and accepted blurring as an artifact.)

As a general rule do not buy Dell for gaming (and that includes Alienware).
TL;DR - I'm asking because I want to buy a new monitor, but the monitor isn't enough. Factorio needs to pan at an unlocked rate.

You misunderstood.

First, I'm not referring to response time blur only motion tracking blur. Two completely different things. In fact, faster response times have no effect on motion tracking blur. The best example of this is the fact that OLED displays suffer the same problem, and they have effectively instant response times.

Second, the entire point of asking for support for higher refresh rates is so that those better monitors can be utilized. Specifically the ones that offer backlight strobing blur reduction modes that require a 1:1 match of FPS to refresh rate. I want to buy an Asus PG279Q, but I would actually see no benefit with it over my U3011 with regards to motion clarity due to the locked 60fps.

Addendum #1: 60fps produces frame lengths of 16.67ms. Blur on a 7ms screen has more to do with perceptual motion tracking blur from sample and hold than response time, though response time does play a role.

Addendum #2: Low response time high speed LCD's actually scale response time with refresh rate. E.g. the Asus PG279Q has a G2G average of 8.2ms (measured) at 60Hz and 5.2ms at 144Hz (which, btw, has a 6.94ms frame length). What makes those numbers particularly stunning is only a 0.4% RTC error at 144Hz. This is true for TN as well. The Dell S2716DG, for example, is 3.4ms at 60Hz and 2.8ms at 144Hz.

*EDIT*: Here is a shot of a pursuit camera test of a LG OLED TV: http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/ec93 ... -large.jpg

The full review has a Q&A section that kind of skims over what the blur buster article discuses about why this happens despite 0.1ms response times: http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/ec9300

The blur from response times appears as an after image as shown in this pursuit cam test of a LCD with strobed backlighting: http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/x930 ... -large.jpg

As you can see, the LCD w/ strobed backlighting completely removes the blur from motion tracking, but since it is a LCD and has a relatively high response time it does have an after image.

Does that help clarify the difference?

Post Reply

Return to “Technical Help”