[0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

[brunzenstein]

The Terrain segmentation in 0.13.1 is running in berserk mode.
Most of the time one resource is either totally missing or otherwise as unpleasant placed as possible to say the least.
®ytsejam's drastic quotation "It's like someone just took this map and wiped their *** with it. Lots of annoying small ponds in the starting area too.." comes in a nutshell pretty close

[o6dukeleto]

I pretty much noticed this right away too, I almost always used low frequency for terrain segmentation in alpha 12. In addition I also tended to use low frequency for most resources.

Terrain segmentation is definitely different in alpha 13, if it is not bugged, could the devs explain the changes?

Secondly, initial map generation definitely feels different, it would be nice to get an explanation on what has all changed. (i.e. it seems like you miss resources more often, frequency settings feel different for ores, etc.)

[ytsejam]

I pretty much noticed this right away too, I almost always used low frequency for terrain segmentation in alpha 12. In addition I also tended to use low frequency for most resources.

Terrain segmentation is definitely different in alpha 13, if it is not bugged, could the devs explain the changes?

Secondly, initial map generation definitely feels different, it would be nice to get an explanation on what has all changed. (i.e. it seems like you miss resources more often, frequency settings feel different for ores, etc.)

All I could find in the 0.13 changeglog about map generation was this new algorithm for resources, no relation with terrain.

It has to be a bug. Why would they intentionally make the maps this ugly? Maybe players who like/don't care about low terrain segmentation are ok with this or didn't even noticed, but for those who care, the maps look like sh*t now

Anyway, it's experimental for a reason.

[IronCartographer]

It really looks like the underlying height map is indicating areas far from large bodies of water should tend to be more dry, while areas by a lot of water should be more green.

This creates nice *local* variation, but on a global scale it gets repetitive because they can't simulate rainfall high/low areas, which would create forests far from water, and desert by some oceans.

EDIT: I can see gameplay motivations for the weird behavior of trees shrinking as water rises. The player loses potential areas to expand into without landfill, but gains areas that don't require clearing trees. It doesn't look right, but it could make sense in a way...

Getting around this would probably be simple: Add another, lower-frequency waveform for humidity (or whatever determines green level) which will allow for larger biomes and more pleasing variation on a very large scale.

Resource generation is the other way around. It's pleasing on the large scale, but needs some adjustment for the starting area.

[MrGrim]

I posted this under general discussion not thinking to check the bug report forum before. I wasn't sure if what I was seeing was a bug:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27655

There's a screenshot there showing a 0.12 save with a large area revealed surrounded by new 0.13 charted territory. It really drives home how different it is. I personally prefer 0.12's look.

[IronCartographer]

I posted this under general discussion not thinking to check the bug report forum before. I wasn't sure if what i was seeing a bug:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27655

There's a screenshot there showing a 0.12 save with a large area revealed surrounded by new 0.13 charted territory. It really drives home how different it is. I personally prefer 0.12's look.

Something in between could be nice. The new system does add more interesting variety, even if on a large scale it gets monotonous. Combining the two effects would be great.

This is a mockup of a dream UI for the map generation settings, which seems like it would fix a *lot* of the issues people have had with map generation--and possibly finally kill RSO if its starting area overlay/filter were done right:

https://jsfiddle.net/2cn53d3o/10/

MapGenMockup.png (23.47 KiB) Viewed 5999 times

[ytsejam]

I posted this under general discussion not thinking to check the bug report forum before. I wasn't sure if what i was seeing a bug:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27655

There's a screenshot there showing a 0.12 save with a large area revealed surrounded by new 0.13 charted territory. It really drives home how different it is. I personally prefer 0.12's look.

To me, maps like yours are more than enough evidence that map generation is bugged. I'm glad I decided to go with a new map for 0.13 and leave my 0.12 map alone.

I thought that maybe they were going for an "alien looking" world, but it doesn't make sense, since there's no mention in the changelog. Besides, that goes against all the customization in the map generation

I also noticed in my 0.13 map more and bigger enemy bases on default settings. Personally that doesn't bother me at all, the terrain on the other hand... geez, it's like bad modern art or something like that

[ixnorp]

I did some investigation of this and compared different 0.13 map generation settings. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27521
Based on viewtopic.php?f=173&t=20858 it seems like something that's going to be ignored for a while while they're fighting more immediate fires. And perhaps a while longer after that, too, since that thread is from March.

[MrGrim]

I did some investigation of this and compared different 0.13 map generation settings. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27521
Based on viewtopic.php?f=173&t=20858 it seems like something that's going to be ignored for a while while they're fighting more immediate fires. And perhaps a while longer after that, too, since that thread is from March.

That thread was also about 0.12, the impact was narrower, and there wasn't a brand spankin' new noise algorithm bragged about in a FFF involved. I'm hoping the wider spread nature of this helps get it at least back to where 0.12 was with regards to the aesthetic quality of the terrain. I know a lot of people don't care as much about aesthetic things, but knowing what will happen if I dare explore a little on my map has me dreading to even fire up the game. I don't even have the option of abandoning the 60+ hours I've put into that map even if I wanted to because a new map would be just as bad.

EDIT: If there's time to make it work on a 15 year old OS (viewtopic.php?t=27168) then there's time to work on the map gen, right?

[ytsejam]

I did some investigation of this and compared different 0.13 map generation settings. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27521
Based on viewtopic.php?f=173&t=20858 it seems like something that's going to be ignored for a while while they're fighting more immediate fires. And perhaps a while longer after that, too, since that thread is from March.

That thread was also about 0.12, the impact was narrower, and there wasn't a brand spankin' new noise algorithm bragged about in a FFF involved. I'm hoping the wider spread nature of this helps get it at least back to where 0.12 was with regards to the aesthetic quality of the terrain. I know a lot of people don't care as much about aesthetic things, but knowing what will happen if I dare explore a little on my map has me dreading to even fire up the game. I don't even have the option of abandoning the 60+ hours I've put into that map even if I wanted to because a new map would be just as bad.

EDIT: If there's time to make it work on a 15 year old OS (viewtopic.php?t=27168) then there's time to work on the map gen, right?

If you don't want to screw your 0.12 map, just make a new one for 0.13. The way I'm doing right now is naming my saves "012xxxx, 013xxxx. It's a reminder in case I forget to revert back to the stable version before playing my 0.12 map.

I agree about the difference on impact compared with viewtopic.php?f=173&t=20858. It's like that small problem escalated to a "global" level. Maybe there's more important issues to deal with right now, but I don't think it's something they can just ignore for too long anymore.

[Qon]

I did some investigation of this and compared different 0.13 map generation settings. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27521
Based on viewtopic.php?f=173&t=20858 it seems like something that's going to be ignored for a while while they're fighting more immediate fires. And perhaps a while longer after that, too, since that thread is from March.

Good pictures there.

But as MrGrim said, this is not the same problem as that old thread. This problem is now much bigger and no longer limited to just aestethics and no longer limited to "water only in starting area" maps. Now it's impossible to get low water segmentation at all.

Water in starting area only maps even generate water all over the place! (from your thread)

[Jj250]

I did some investigation of this and compared different 0.13 map generation settings. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27521
Based on viewtopic.php?f=173&t=20858 it seems like something that's going to be ignored for a while while they're fighting more immediate fires. And perhaps a while longer after that, too, since that thread is from March.

IMO this is an immediate fire. Totally ruins my experience, I refuse to play .13 until terrain segmentation is fixed, I only ever play with low or very low segmentation.

[Engimage]

I just finished my 0.12.35 map which migrated to 0.13 and decided to start a new game.
Now on 0.13.2
This segmentation totally ruins all maps! After near 30 attempts I just could not get a single map I could agree to play on. Totally rediculous!
Please fix asap!

[Loewchen]

Related: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27521

[Engimage]

I really love devs for releasing patches every day. But I was really hoping this would be solved for next patch.

But it was not. [0.13.3] still has this issue effectively stopping me from playing. So sad weekend lost.

[ixnorp]

I just finished my 0.12.35 map which migrated to 0.13 and decided to start a new game.
Now on 0.13.2
This segmentation totally ruins all maps! After near 30 attempts I just could not get a single map I could agree to play on. Totally rediculous!
Please fix asap!

Yeah. I wanted to start fresh for 0.13.x and yet I've not played 0.13.x at all except very briefly to try and generate some maps I dislike, then get discouraged and quit. Been checking the bug forums every day since 0.13.0 came out. I hope the issue is at least acknowledged soon if not fixed.

[ytsejam]

I just finished my 0.12.35 map which migrated to 0.13 and decided to start a new game.
Now on 0.13.2
This segmentation totally ruins all maps! After near 30 attempts I just could not get a single map I could agree to play on. Totally rediculous!
Please fix asap!

Yeah. I wanted to start fresh for 0.13.x and yet I've not played 0.13.x at all except very briefly to try and generate some maps I dislike, then get discouraged and quit. Been checking the bug forums every day since 0.13.0 came out. I hope the issue is at least acknowledged soon if not fixed.

Well, they acknowledged there's people complaining about it. However, they did not acknowledged the terrain generation is bugged

"There have been many complains regarding the terrain generation, we didn't encounter these problems in our games, but we should probably go back to it and tweak it a little."

To me, that's like "no idea what you're talking about, but we'll look into it". I wonder how that's even possible. Don't they test the game under low segmentation settings? Are they all testing it on updated .12 saves? Even if that was the case, there's pics out there showing what is happening with .12 maps when updated to .13.

[Qon]

However, they did not acknowledged the terrain generation is bugged

"There have been many complains regarding the terrain generation, we didn't encounter these problems in our games, but we should probably go back to it and tweak it a little."

To me, that's like "no idea what you're talking about, but we'll look into it". I wonder how that's even possible. Don't they test the game under low segmentation settings? Are they all testing it on updated .12 saves? Even if that was the case, there's pics out there showing what is happening with .12 maps when updated to .13.

It can't be on purpose. Segmentation: "Very low" gives higher segmentation in 0.13 than "very high" in 0.12. "Water only in starting area" gives water everywhere. Of course it's not on purpose. They probably were a bit rushed in their testing and used mostly high segmentation and/or played 0.12 maps without exploring as you said. They are working on the problem atm and it might not be easy to solve. I'll be patient and play 0.12 while I wait.

[orzelek]

Tbh I still don't understand why for some this is a game breaking bug
For small lakes there is landfill now so they are covered.

Most problematic thing I can see is that you can start with no basic resources near starting area.

[ixnorp]

However, they did not acknowledged the terrain generation is bugged

"There have been many complains regarding the terrain generation, we didn't encounter these problems in our games, but we should probably go back to it and tweak it a little."

To me, that's like "no idea what you're talking about, but we'll look into it". I wonder how that's even possible. Don't they test the game under low segmentation settings? Are they all testing it on updated .12 saves? Even if that was the case, there's pics out there showing what is happening with .12 maps when updated to .13.

It can't be on purpose. Segmentation: "Very low" gives higher segmentation in 0.13 than "very high" in 0.12. "Water only in starting area" gives water everywhere. Of course it's not on purpose. They probably were a bit rushed in their testing and used mostly high segmentation and/or played 0.12 maps without exploring as you said. They are working on the problem atm and it might not be easy to solve. I'll be patient and play 0.12 while I wait.

I figure that they'll fix it soonish since they took time to note it on the FFF. I can understand how, from the stand point of the devs, map gen is a lower priority than crashes since the game is technically playable and there's a map editor if we don't like what's being generated. I don't really agree, but I can understand what I assume is their line of thinking.

The whole "we didn't encounter these problems in our games" made me roll my eyes pretty hard though. If that's actually the case then I don't believe that they tested the map generator at all beyond maybe making a couple of maps, looking at the initial reveal, and going "Ehhhhh... close enough. Let's go back to making the fun features." I would like to see the current complaints addressed explicitly, especially the three that I brought up in my post here viewtopic.php?p=174148#p174148 that seems to have now been merged into another thread.