Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

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Beaumont
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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by Beaumont » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:34 pm

First of all I want to state that I'm sure you put a lot of thought and effort into your current endgame concept. But let me please elaborate my thoughts about it in hope to start a constructive discussion. From what I've read so far I'm afraid this concept will feel like a foreign object to the Factorio gameplay. It seems to me to be infinitely less complex than the previous factory-buliding and maybe will become the weakest phase of gameplay. Especially because you put a lot of effort into the buliding of *your* factory and are now forced to leave it behind somewhat.

I'm honestly sitting in a glass house here for I have no better idea for the endgame at the moment. But I hope I can initiate a living discussion about it and maybe we, as a community, can come up with a more round idea.

Please don't get me wrong. I love Factorio, it's complexity and the incredible effort the team has put in it and still is.I want the game to become the best it can be and I think an honest opinion can help with that.

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by vampiricdust » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:37 pm

The space part of the game sounds like something I'll do once to beat the game and never want to do again. It just feel so against the grain of the main part of the game, a huge sprawling factory becomes a cramped space platform for an even more cramped ship that will just succeed or fail? I suppose this fits with the tight spot & belt challenge missions, but even the tight spot missions were about money. I'd really like to see this end game idea more incorporated in the rest of the game or reconsidered. There should be more parallels to the end game in early & mid game.

That said, the art for the platform is awesome and reminds me of SC2 space platforms.

To paraphrase one of my favorite characters....

Hero? No. I'm a capitalist. I don't want to be a hero. A hero would share these resources with them, but a capitalist hordes the resources and sells them for profit and better stuff. I WANT ALL THE RESOURCES!

Seriously though, we spend ten plus hours being the bad polluting, resource stealing, and warring with native species so we can end being a hero? x.x I really admire the work you guys are doing, but do you really think this end game fits with game experience you've given us? Could you at least give us a game type of wealth instead of this space rescue? I was really looking forward to selling goods for wealth and have a youtube series I'm basing off that idea.

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by Ledjlale » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:38 pm

You won't end up with forgotten chests if you pick them up for reuse afterwards.

Even easier: don't rely on the logistics network (small orange area) but on the construction "network" (larger green area): place a chest, stuff it, then order deconstruction. The bots will come along and take the contents and the chest itself with them.
Having bots that take directly from your inventory let you move around without taking care about green areas and let you decide to remove something at the moment you want. Each time I see my inventory, I'm thinking about this feature. And often when I want to remove something from my inventory, I'm out of range of bots.
Plus doing what you proposed is not an automated technic. Remember, factorio is all about automation. So we need automation to avoid clicking ;) )

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by Ledjlale » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:40 pm

I don't want to be a hero. A hero would share these resources with them, but a capitalist hordes the resources and sells them for profit and better stuff. I WANT ALL THE RESOURCES!
Haha! Don't you want a drink or a Big Piece of meat instead?
Last edited by Ledjlale on Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by Zefnoly » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:41 pm

This is so cool! Building factories in space would add more room for mining and etc. on ground and more space to build safe factories inn space where the inhabits can't reach and destroy it. Maybe also more power from solarpanels. But The dews should make own textures for stuff that has vents and things like that because it is no air in space but this is still looking awsome! Great work! looks forward to aoutomatic railroad construction and space construction!
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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by dee- » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:49 pm

Ledjlale wrote:
You won't end up with forgotten chests if you pick them up for reuse afterwards.

Even easier: don't rely on the logistics network (small orange area) but on the construction "network" (larger green area): place a chest, stuff it, then order deconstruction. The bots will come along and take the contents and the chest itself with them.
Having bots that take directly from your inventory let you move around without taking care about green areas and let you decide to remove something at the moment you want. Each time I see my inventory, I'm thinking about this feature. And often when I want to remove something from my inventory, I'm out of range of bots.
Plus doing what you proposed is not an automated technic. Remember, factorio is all about automation. So we need automation to avoid clicking ;) )
So bring a storage chest, a roboport and some flying friends with you. Happy copy'n'paste-building in the outback :)
I've always got all sorts of chests with me and I suppose you will still have to have the bots in the inventory when using the new "pocket building" functionality. So it maybe costs you one slot for the roboport, but YMMV, I always have a stack of them in the inventory anyway. :shrugs: And either way you'll have to bring the building resources with you for the bots to pick up.

Maybe I'm just a little frightened the devs lose the overall focus when doing those extra-thingies that (for me) have no real use and which can already be accomplished ingame without those extra-thingies. I am not a very big fan of the rescue endgame so perhaps that's the reason I think the polish can wait and it's better get the fundamentals right.

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by SHiRKiT » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:02 pm

I still suggest "colored logistics networks". You can overlap them, but only robots from a specific color can interact with chests of that logistics color.

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by Ledjlale » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:40 pm

I already use this method but each time, I'm thinking about why they didn't do bots that take items.
Maybe I'm just a little frightened the devs lose the overall focus when doing those extra-thingies that (for me) have no real use and which can already be accomplished ingame without those extra-thingies.
From what you say, I suppose that you hate the current logictic when bots put items in your inventory and don't use it. Boring tasks don't give a better gameplay, I think that you know what I say as I'm certain that you are very happy when bots put items in your inventory.
Of course there are priorities, but one more time ; it's not extra-thingies because it's about automation that is the goal of the game.

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by dee- » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:05 pm

Ledjlale wrote:I already use this method but each time, I'm thinking about why they didn't do bots that take items.
Maybe I'm just a little frightened the devs lose the overall focus when doing those extra-thingies that (for me) have no real use and which can already be accomplished ingame without those extra-thingies.
From what you say, I suppose that you hate the current logictic when bots put items in your inventory and don't use it. Boring tasks don't give a better gameplay, I think that you know what I say as I'm certain that you are very happy when bots put items in your inventory.
Of course there are priorities, but one more time ; it's not extra-thingies because it's about automation that is the goal of the game.
Actually I intensely use the logistic network to fill my inventory slots. Belts, pipes, even factories. I hate running around fetching all this manually :)
What I meant is there already is a way to dispose of items you no longer need/want in your inventoy by filling chests and ordering a deconstruct.
Sure, it's possible to add the functionality to have bots take away items from you if you have too much of them, but from my experience it's more suffering to run out of items than to have some unused spare you carry around. I think having bots flying around emptying my inventory might bind too many of the bots, which could be used better somewhere else, as the nuisance of having too much items (and still be able to dispose of them by deconstructing chests) is, at least for my playstyle, not big enough.
Other than that, inserters and logistic chests also just have a "smaller than", "equal", "bigger than", "have this many" logic and not a "between" which would bring items if too few and remove items if too many, so this would disrupt consistency between logistic slots in the player inventory and in requester chests.
But let's see what the devs come up with ^^

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by CmmdrNeverborn » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:54 pm

Am I correct in guessing that the repeated references to "human capsules" means we'll be moving the colonists in pods around on conveyor belts with inserters and whatnot, as if they were items? I'll admit, that is not what I was expecting. It's a little weird to think that there could conceivably be cryopods bumping around on conveyor belts alongside heaps of gears and raw ores, but it's delightfully dystopian.

To be perfectly honest the whole space platform thing seems like an enormous shift in terms of gameplay. Factorio as it exists so far is a game about maximizing throughput, optimizing, and fine-tuning systems to satisfy ever-increasing production demands on an increasingly massive scale -and it provides this gameplay experience very, very, very well. This new "chapter" of the game does not sound very similar at all. I'm not saying I dislike it (obviously, I haven't played it) -just that it seems extremely different from the gameplay experience that attracted me to Factorio in the first place. I think there's a difference between "adding new gameplay aspects" and fundamentally altering the game being played in the middle. It would be like playing a game of RISK and after conquering Yakutsk the player is suddenly switched to Catan or Scrabble or something. It also seems like such fundamental changes to gameplay will be an enormous undertaking to the code team.

I do love the aesthetic of the space platform and launch pad. The art is gorgeous, those guys have serious talent.

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by ssilk » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:09 pm

Guys, before you repeat discussing (really funny and obscure things), I recommend to read the picture from the white board in detail. :)
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
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I still like small signatures...

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by Drury » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:24 pm

Having okayed it the last time saying it will be "just like SpaceChem" I don't feel so sure about the cinematic part now. It is a bit different from SpaceChem after all, sounds like the ship will be accomplishing complex and diverse tasks for long periods. You said in your games.cz interview that you know players like to just walk around their factory admiring it, but a huge part of that experience is knowing that you can change anything, anytime. This element will be absent with a fully independent automated spaceship drone in deep space. Not saying it's a bad idea, just don't bank on the cinematics too much. The Order 1886 devs did so very recently and... I take it you can just let it do it's thing while you manage your factory, which is probably the best way of going about it.

/a bit of a story pitch, what if the ship returns with colonists, their pods opening... Only for you to realize a horrible truth about them? Discover what's wrong in Factorio 2: Resolving The Worst Cliffhanger Since HL2:Episode 2!

/as with others, it feels wrong rescuing people. Kind of got used to being the villain, and after having recently played MGS I'd really just want to build the ultimate weapon to destroy every living being on the planet and harvest all alien artifacts in a single stroke. Consume everything, then clone myself and send those clones off to various depths of space.
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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by Dark_Lightning » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:31 pm

I don't know if I like the space idea it seems to change the game dramatically. Personally I think it would be better if both the current model and the space model were in game and when you started a game you would have to choose you path. I hope this is read and considered by the Dev. team. :)
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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by kassel188 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:30 am

I'm not really set on this space platform idea. Why would you have to build two factories (Starter planet and then the space platform) and then play a round of space defenders and "faster than light" game (Defending your ship), and then watch the cinematic with no control, to complete factorio? And on top of that rescue some people stranded in space. Are these people the colonists that you bring back to your planet?

In my humble opinion, it would have been better to just build a factory, and then build a proper base for the settlers to arrive at. Like the first idea was.
To go into space to save these stranded people, just seems too far away from the main story behind this game (you have to colonize a new planet for the settlers to arrive) ( I like this approach much better)
This main goal, is also what motivates you to build your base in the first place.

I see how space is a natural step to take in the progression of this game, but the way its done now, just misses the point, at least I think so.
Like it was written in the blog this week (21.02-15) the devs don't want to create a whole new game for the endgoal. Seems to me they are headed up that path with this route.

I'm sure a lot of these questions will be answered as the storyline progresses, and they start building this, so I'm not taking a firm stand on this opinion. There is a good chance I will be proven wrong, and I'm happy if that happens.

With this being said, I am very glad, that they are adding some form of endgame to this. However what form it might take.
Its been missing from this game for a long time.
And with some more work, who knows. It might turn out great after all. Its too early to say.

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by FishSandwich » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:01 am

Dark_Lightning wrote:I don't know if I like the space idea it seems to change the game dramatically. Personally I think it would be better if both the current model and the space model were in game and when you started a game you would have to choose you path. I hope this is read and considered by the Dev. team. :)
Well the space stage is meant as end game content, nobody is forcing you to do it. :p

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by The Phoenixian » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:12 am

vampiricdust wrote:The space part of the game sounds like something I'll do once to beat the game and never want to do again. It just feel so against the grain of the main part of the game, a huge sprawling factory becomes a cramped space platform for an even more cramped ship that will just succeed or fail? I suppose this fits with the tight spot & belt challenge missions, but even the tight spot missions were about money. I'd really like to see this end game idea more incorporated in the rest of the game or reconsidered. There should be more parallels to the end game in early & mid game.

That said, the art for the platform is awesome and reminds me of SC2 space platforms.

To paraphrase one of my favorite characters....

Hero? No. I'm a capitalist. I don't want to be a hero. A hero would share these resources with them, but a capitalist hordes the resources and sells them for profit and better stuff. I WANT ALL THE RESOURCES!

Seriously though, we spend ten plus hours being the bad polluting, resource stealing, and warring with native species so we can end being a hero? x.x I really admire the work you guys are doing, but do you really think this end game fits with game experience you've given us? Could you at least give us a game type of wealth instead of this space rescue? I was really looking forward to selling goods for wealth and have a youtube series I'm basing off that idea.
Personally I don't mind it: It's amusingly ironic that all the evils you commit are simply in order to save your own people, even if it costs the natives their existence.

I hope that in the end, that's something written with the nature of the items we need to shuttle to the colony ship (having things like life support and spare spaceship parts be essential resources for the trip) rather than something written in text so that we players are encouraged to think about it, but as themes go, "destroy what's theirs to protect what's yours" is not a bad one for a villain.
The greatest gulf that we must leap is the gulf between each other's assumptions and conceptions. To argue fairly, we must reach consensus on the meanings and values of basic principles. -Thereisnosaurus

ible
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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by ible » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:35 am

I strongly urge the devs to consider the space idea as a new game with a different gameplay focus from Factorio.

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by Necromunger » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:07 am

I shit bricks when i saw that platform. Yes please.

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by dog_365 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:19 am

awesome platform looking for it

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Re: Friday Facts #74 - The brainstorming

Post by Tzulptuth » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:53 am

Heh, the moment I saw the platform I thought "Starcraft". The first one. Oh, the memories...

I'm fine with the space ship stage, but rather than it being endgame, how about midgame?

So you rescue the colonists, tow their ship to the planet, make planetfall somewhere near your factory (you did build that landing pad, didn't you?), and...
It's on again! The Settlers in SPEEEHS! Feed'em, clothe'em, make'em work, lead'em for some bug squishing. Give'em shotguns for more squishing.

The salvaged ship has loads of fancy tech on board, so there is a trainload of new stuff to research and build. Mining, anyone?

And if you don't like the space stage, then, as somebody said, don't go there.
It's your game.

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