Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

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emp_zealoth
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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by emp_zealoth »

Slightly off topic:
Can anyone redo the wallpaper into "Polandball can into space"?
Pwetty pls

factory33
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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by factory33 »

kovarex wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:58 am
Reika wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:26 am
That said, I would have liked more explanation on the new tutorials and what exactly made them so problematic relative to the old ones; the FFF is rather vague and rather brief, only a single sentence mentioning "breaking progression".
There were more problems, but these are those that can't be just tweaked out:
  • Mechanisms that are there only for the needs of tutorial, but not in the game later on - complatron, scrap mining, custom electricity generation, custom assembling machine that can't be moved or the recipe changed, compilatron chest (that can't be opened and ntrasnforms into a normal chest), not being able to craft intermediates.
  • Gives wrong impression about what the game is about. (connected premaid buildings with belts to satisfy objectives).
I have to disagree partially!!

Tutorial, campagin and demo are terms that have distinct meanings and most people have already played other games with tutorials, campaigns and demos and therefore have certain expectations if they click on <Tutorial>, <Campaign> or <Demo>.
Your problem is that you try to merge those things to one which complicates things and creates the mess.
The problems mentioned by Kovarex are only real problems if you label the new "Compilatron tutorial" as demo. Here I agree, that a demo should give a good impression of what the game is about and the old campagin did this better.

On the other hand if I click on <Tutorial> I expect an more or less usefull handholding experience and I know from other games that a tutorial has mechanisms which are not present or work different in the actual game. The same is true for campaigns: It is totally normal (and often necessary) to have different mechanisms in a good campaign.
If by chance somebody picks up Factorio as their very first game or has no experience and expectations for the three mentioned terms, they need more informationa anyways. Therefore I propose you label the things with what they are and add a descriptive text to each and let people choose themselves how they want to learn the game. (Rumors are there is a certain type of player that never ever would click on something labeled <Tutorial> anyways ;) ).

Demo: the old campaing, updated and tweaked.

Tutorial: the new "Compilatron Tutorial" with a description such as: "This tutorial contains (excessive) amounts of handholding and elements that are not present in the core game <Freeplay>. This tutoriual was created to introduce you to the concepts of Factorio efficiently and in a reasonable timeframe"
Honestly I haven't played through the whole "Compilatron tutorial" and don't know how much more of a campaign and less a tutorial it is getting towards the end (and the future chapters you have planned)). Here I see the danger that you will lock the whole campaign behind the <Tutorial> button and some people will miss it. If it is both tutorial and campaign then label it <Tutorial and campaign> so poeple know what to expect.

I really don't understand why you would remove the "Compilatron Tutorial" at this point since much work flew into it. Alone for the cool crashed ship and alternative assemble ect. graphics it would be a shame.
Worst case just move it to scenarios as others proposed already. Next to tower defense, PVP, Economic PVP, Mini puzzles and whatever other modes are already in the game somewhere it wont hurt to keep this around aswell.
Also since a point of criticism towards the game from few people is the lack of story or "real" goals the game needs a campaign.

tldr: The "Compilatron tutorial" should be kept as tutorial (expanding to the campaign?) but NOT as demo in my opinion. Do not scrap it please!

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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Antyradek »

90.3% people bought borrowed the game via Steam.
This is horrible, we live in the world, where people no longer care about owning a property.

It's good that you still sell the game on website and via GOG (where I got it).

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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by nafira »

Antyradek wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:23 pm
90.3% people bought borrowed the game via Steam.
This is horrible, we live in the world, where people no longer care about owning a property.

It's good that you still sell the game on website and via GOG (where I got it).
90.3% people bought a copy of borrowed the game via Steam.

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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Honktown »

What is also interesting, is that we had a lot more sales on our site before we launched on Steam.
Well duh it wasn't on Steam before it was on Steam.
I think most people have gotten away from privately buying game licenses, both for reasons of convenience (if it's on Steam I can expect a certain capability of integration like shift-tabbing and can throw money at it) and for almost a sense of security: there's possibly an option of refunds/reviews/etc. See something like EA's garbage where they don't even allow reviews, or MMO's that sell year subscriptions but shut down servers six months after coming out.

I'll mention I did play one tutorial in .16, for about 20 minutes, and was REALLY thrown off when I joined a game. I was handheld in multiplayer, that's why I didn't play any more tutorials.

I don't remember if tutorials blinked when they were available. Relating the oil change in 17 to ease players into oil, I've still seen a few people having issues with it, it might be pertinent to re-think how it's done. There could even be a "fluids" tutorial when a recipe containing fluids is first available, so that people don't get burned by being unable to rotate an assembler or something, in addition to a tutorial that transitions from basic processing to advanced processing. I could see a situation where someone ran a pipe along the back of their oil refinery (or the front), and when they go to advanced processing they suddenly get ERER can't mix fluids (the oil pipe is in front of the water connection, or petro is connected to light/heavy), and there's nothing to tell them what's going on. Maybe literally right there, if one gets the message you can't mix fluids, bring up a blinky option for a tutorial under technology to explain what that means, going over pipe connections, machine recipes, and maybe the refinery. It'd be a lot less frustration for that specific case, and an "oh I see, that makes sense".
factory33 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:48 pm
...
I always wondered what/where the "campaign" people talked about was. Figured it was a private thing or something I had to download. Did it used to be under a scenario? I played the old wave defense, don't remember what else there was.

I agree with that tutorial, campaign, and demo mean very different things. Tutorial: tell me what to do, and what the goals are. I have no freaking clue how to play this game or what I should want, so tell me what I should be doing and let me do it myself. Demo: I can probably play the game fine, but if there are unique/special things, show me and make me think it's interesting. I know you won't let me play with all the features, and may only have some of the "lower-tier" stuff available. Campaign: long winded thing, which isn't going to be completely relevant to the "normal" gameplay. Normal RTS campaign: progress each map, slowly introducing me to new units and more mechanics, while making it challenging. FPS: same deal, more guns, more bad guys, more complicated levels. Simulators: mostly like the normal game, but throw difficulty curveballs or make stages which emphasize certain gameplay mechanics i.e. if it's Sim City, give me a flood zone, or start me off with a ton of impoverished people and high crimes, etc.

Factorio's obviously not those, but campaigns have common themes of story, difficulty progression, a semi-fixed set of tools for each level/scenario that let me play with different combinations, etc. The biggest difference is Factorio emphasizes the numbers/automation and time game above most of the other mechanics (not to be insulting, but like the enemies aren't overly complicated, there's no automatic tree harvesting for coal vs tree generation, normal game doesn't give many choices for managing pollutions in a small time frame, etc). In that sense it's not very well suited to a shorter "campaign". I'd feel stuff like supply games are more of a proper "campaign" in Factorio. You can't make an army, so a "build up forces to conquer the local jerks" doesn't make sense. A story could be made with using the jeep and driving from factory to factory, completing objectives at each factory (meet a production quota by reorganizing a set-up, make something new, clear the biters with the weaponry provided to access resources they need, whatever else one can come up with). Switching surfaces or save games as a means of indicating "now you're doing something completely different, get ready".
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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by posila »

I am not sure why it was not stated clearly in the blog post itself, but by tutorial is meant the Introduction campaign in 0.17 (sometimes referred to as NPE - new player experience), and First Steps campaign in 0.16 and older versions. (I don't know if New Hope campaign will be added back also)

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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Blymoje »

I don't understand how go back to "rebuilding the base three times" and "research? What is this? ” is improvement over NPE. At least NPE was more fun than collecting resources and building the base and then base is destroyed by the game. Do that three times. No "Automated production & science." because science doesn't exist. There is no "automated logistics" because why build it when your base is destroyed when you reach the goal. Mining and mining automation demo doesn't show the real game.

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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by AntiElitz »

The old introduction/ campaign was horrible. So terrible that I think bringing it back will hurt the future player-base.
The new one may not nave been perfect yet, but replacing this "local maximum" with the old "global minimum" is a move i cannot understand. The introduction is there to catch the player and make him want to play the game after all. So it's all about being polished. And there is not enough time to polish the old one to the same level. The people will play the "normal" game after the campaign already and get the further core ideas there.
I'd understand this move if you'd replace this current state by working on a better version. Instead the work of a sub team that is very experiences with the impressions of totally new players is scrapped. I am sure they do know best what the problems of new players are.

I'd really recommend you to show the new and the old campaign to some new players and let them decide on what is more fun to them. Ultimately they are the ones that matter and i am sure they will prefer the polished version over the one that is more precise on teaching the core ideas they don't even know about yet

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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by PacifyerGrey »

I am glad old tutorials come back.
I did never like Compilatron neither by design nor by its name.

When I first played Factorio I started with tutorials. And I do remember that I was absolutely astonished by the scale of bases you meet during gameplay. The pinacle was the map where you had to repair train tracks to mining outposts. This was the first one where I did embrace the mass smelting setups and actually understood the point of it and especially the NEED for it.

Learning myself by reconstructing and repairing stuff was much more engaging than having Compilatron do it for you and show the end result.

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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Blymoje »

"The pinacle was the map where you had to repair train tracks to mining outposts."

That is not part of old demo. Old demo is only craft pickaxe, mining drill and furnace. Then new map and collect resources. Then new map and build radar. Then the demo is over. Posila said that is what is blog post talks about.

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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Jap2.0 »

factory33 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:48 pm
On the other hand if I click on <Tutorial> I expect an more or less usefull handholding experience and I know from other games that a tutorial has mechanisms which are not present or work different in the actual game.
The purpose of a campaign is to teach the game mechanics. While there may be other mechanisms to do so (although this isn't even universally used among tutorials), I've never seen a game change those mechanics themselves, and I think that's an important distinction to make.

"This tutorial contains (excessive) amounts of handholding and elements that are not present in the core game <Freeplay>. This tutoriual was created to introduce you to the concepts of Factorio efficiently and in a reasonable timeframe"
It seems to me that if you have to put something like that in front of a tutorial it's a bit offputting. Additionally it's introducing the "concept" of automation vs showing the actual game mechanics and got to start a game. The latter is what I would expect from a tutorial: almost every tutorial that comes to mind teaches me how to start the game, usually by guiding me through the beginning of it.

I really don't understand why you would remove the "Compilatron Tutorial" at this point since much work flew into it.
Sunk cost fallacy.

(Agreed that keeping it and the graphics around as a scenario wouldn't be a bad idea, though, as stated previously.)

Blymoje wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:37 pm
I don't understand how go back to "rebuilding the base three times" and "research? What is this? ” can be seen as an improvement over NPE.
Because it teaches you how to actually start the game?

I'd say that there is a decent amount of automation and logistics, at least more than you're giving it credit for - mining and smelting are a good basis for the early-game, and it teaches power as well.
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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Honktown »

Blymoje wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:16 pm
"The pinacle was the map where you had to repair train tracks to mining outposts."

That is not part of old demo. Old demo is only craft pickaxe, mining drill and furnace. Then new map and collect resources. Then new map and build radar. Then demo over. Posila said that is what is blog post talks about.
If the old demos/tutorials had the burner phase, (in my opinion) completely remove that part: start with a few things like an assembler making gears, electric drills, etc, and walk through handcrafting needing stuff and how machines work so you don't have to handcraft. Then that there's a technology screen to unlock more stuff, which helps them make more stuff. As part of the map, put an electric drill on a coal patch that runs out, and make the player move it and extract more. The key: Don't tell them to do it. If a player knows they can pick up things with right click, enter inventory, and put stuff down again, let them figure out that they need to extract more coal for the generators. If they have no spare belts, they can figure out they should handcraft or steal belts from somewhere else because they need more coal first, and they should make more belts to replace the moved ones. Result: goals and motivations were created without ever telling them to do it or why they should. When a player's dropped into a normal game, they get surprised with the burner phase. They look through their inventory and crafts: "I can make drills... I need fuel... okay I got it". They end up creating the goal of making generators and electric drills without ever having been told to. Puts in a mindset that they're creating their own motivations, without ever telling them they should have x y z goals. If they run into a low power situation later, they can say "oh I need more fuel" or "I have power... but what's wrong? Oh, I need more"
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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Jap2.0 »

AntiElite wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:52 pm
Instead the work of a sub team that is very experiences with the impressions of totally new players is scrapped. I am sure they do know best what the problems of new players are.
Abredago, Kovarex et al. are still here and actively participating in the game design. Actually, they're Kovarex is the one who made this decision...

I'd really recommend you to show the new and the old campaign to some new players and let them decide on what is more fun to them. Ultimately they are the ones that matter and i am sure they will prefer the polished version over the one that is more precise on teaching the core ideas they don't even know about yet
So the onions of those who've played both as well as the full game don't matter?

I enjoyed the old campaign far more - but because my opinions don't matter, I'll focus on something else. The old campaign focused on things that are far more applicable to beginning a new game. It's not just there to be fun, it's there to teach, and ultimately if I don't know what in the world I'm supposed to do when I start freeplay, I doubt I'd think that that would be that much fun.

Edit: with all the talk of the train scenario, why not add that to the demo/tutorial?
Last edited by Jap2.0 on Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Omarflyjoemacky »

nafira wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:58 pm
Antyradek wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:23 pm
90.3% people bought borrowed the game via Steam.
This is horrible, we live in the world, where people no longer care about owning a property.

It's good that you still sell the game on website and via GOG (where I got it).
90.3% people bought a copy of borrowed the game via Steam.
I truly understand both sides here... and both are technically correct (the best kind of correct!). This is why a COLLECTORS EDITION is frequently requested on reddit (you hear us Wube?).
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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Honktown »

Jap2.0 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:33 pm
Edit: with all the talk of the train scenario, why not add that to the demo/tutorial?
What a coincidence, was looking for something else:

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... _nutshell/
hehe
Factorio's not a short game, overloading a tutorial might put newbies off :P
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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Hiladdar »

First off, major congratulations on 2m games sold! That means that most likely there were at least 2m different people banging away on keyboards and clicking mice trying to break the game, and in the end result, a much more stable playable release.

Regarding the tutorial/campaign game. I started with any tutorial/demo campaign through. I just started up a map and learned from my mistakes, often restarting on a new map. When I did hit a snag, I did opt to go through some tutorials, particularly on train signalling. The other times, I went to videos on the internet on how to set stuff up.

I think there does need to be some "how to" videos, has well as "why do it this way" videos. Mini tutorials that can be evoked while playing as a single user, are a great way to help a player over the hump. Campaigns, for a polished version of the game are also a must, particularly since may players grew up playing them.

Regarding the cover art presented on the this FF. It looks great! But the first thing that came to my mind when I saw it was Doctor Strangeglove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the bomb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove), a 55 year old movie, from a bygone era. If you have not seen the movie, find it, watch it and enjoy.

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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Jap2.0 »

Honktown wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:16 pm
Jap2.0 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:33 pm
Edit: with all the talk of the train scenario, why not add that to the demo/tutorial?
What a coincidence, was looking for something else:

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... _nutshell/
hehe
Factorio's not a short game, overloading a tutorial might put newbies off :P
This is why we don't tell them how long it is and just rely on Factorio's ability to been the space-time continuum and keep people up until 3 in the morning :)
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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Philip017 »

posila wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:29 pm
I am not sure why it was not stated clearly in the blog post itself, but by tutorial is meant the Introduction campaign in 0.17 (sometimes referred to as NPE - new player experience), and First Steps campaign in 0.16 and older versions. (I don't know if New Hope campaign will be added back also)
my vote is to bring back everything,
the old first steps and new hope could use a little polishing, but i definitely think they deserve to be in the game
the new NPE, complitron campaign, i know you had plans to expand this, and i feel it is still a very cool campaign so please dont scrap it, and i would love to see it expanded further, it was such an investment by your staff and the art, all that work that went into developing it, it feels like a real shame if you really decide to scrap it entirely. however DLC content for the future maybe?

but i guess that im just a fan, and my words may not mean much, i can think of other decisions that you made i feel were ill conceived:
- the basic oil changes
- and the removal of the pick axe

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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by Optera »

the unbelievable story of the Fallout 76 fails that goes way further than I thought it can
Fallout 76 the gift that keeps on giving.
When Bethesda is done not only will they have destroyed a great franchise, dethroned EA as least liked game company, but also made history creating the worst mmo ever by haphazardly hacking multiplayer into a buggy single player game.
What is also interesting, is that we had a lot more sales on our site before we launched on Steam. Either this is Steam cannibalising our website sales, or just everybody who wanted to buy it on our site did so before launching on Steam. Another data point for speculating on, is that 81.3% of people who purchased the game on our website, redeemed and activated their Steam key. Factoring that into the above numbers, about 96.7% of all players own the game on Steam.
I bought Factorio through steam and haven't played a single minute through steam after finding out you can get the game as stand alone version directly from the website.
Steam is nice and all, but I really prefer to have games just working without forcing me to be online.

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Re: Friday Facts #327 - 2020 Vision

Post by nevniv »

I am happy to hear the tutorial is getting scrapped. I didn't really care for it, never even made it all the way through it. I liked the old one more. I feel like they were trying to solve an impossible problem when making the new one.

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