Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:43 am

I'm pretty sure that they mean bitters&spitters by "biters"...

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by Serenity » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:14 pm

Philip017 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:51 pm
lets hope the separation logic doesn't allow them to stand on top of each other
Why not:

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by BattleFluffy » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:13 pm

Thankyou for addressing the bitters mosh pit issue!!

I always thought of it like the beat dropping at some rock concert and everyone entering a crazy mosh pit, but mating dance is a good description too :>

Like others have already said, I too deeply wish for pathing AI similar to the way starcraft zerglings move. However this change alone will make bitters far deadlier, and I can't WAIT to try out my various "ULTRA WALL" designs against them. :>

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by Dune » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:45 pm

It's nice to see this biters change from a visuals standpoint, but I feel that biters are already a lot harder in 17 vs 16. This change will make it that much more difficult for players.
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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by TheRaph » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:37 pm

I'm not able to play that Geary Grinder. I'm on vacation and my notebook pc hasn't a mouse wheel.
Are there chances to implement a keybord-way (like + and -) ?
if someone is interested in the whole story
back to toppic: New bitter movement looks nice.

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by Muche » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:36 pm

TheRaph wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:37 pm
I'm not able to play that Geary Grinder. I'm on vacation and my notebook pc hasn't a mouse wheel.
Are there chances to implement a keybord-way (like + and -) ?
As a workaround, you could try emulating mouse wheel using keyboard. I found this AutoHotkey script https://www.autohotkey.com/docs/scripts/NumpadMouse.htm (emulates mouse moving, buttons & wheel using numpad), however, I am actually not sure whether it will work on a notebook's smaller keyboard.

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by NIronwolf » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:40 am

I wonder if you can do a check to see if a bitter is stopped (attacking) and then again have it collide. This could ensure they wouldn't be stacked up on each other when attacking. It also "feels" right, in that a crowded city sidewalk flows at a street crossing but then bunches up and it's hard to keep moving when everyone is stopped for a signal.

That said, I do like the appearance in the updated pathfinding. Just thinking about it still being realistic enough the whole time. :)

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by peternlewis » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:32 am

EnerJi wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:01 pm
Perhaps I can assist? I've raised this issue a few times in recent months as even pre-Catalina I strenuously avoid running unsigned software. I'm not a professional developer, but I dabble and am willing to test...

First of all, I want to introduce the commandline tool "spctl" which can be used to verify your signature and notarization status.
I came here to pass on similar information, but @EnerJi said it very well. It's not overly difficult to test signing and notorization status.

Also, while notorization stapling is a bit of a pain because of the async nature of the notorization, and then completion, and then needing to run the staple command, and the notorization process taking an inexplicable several minutes to be performed, it is relatively straight forward to automate the entire process - if you have any issues with accomplishing this, I'm happy to help you resolve it via email.

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by BlueTemplar » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:07 am

Dune wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:45 pm
It's nice to see this biters change from a visuals standpoint, but I feel that biters are already a lot harder in 17 vs 16. This change will make it that much more difficult for players.
Yeah, first the fix for that biter spawning plateau, now biters being effective when attacking en masse - you won't be able to just ignore pollution anymore ! Which is good, isn't it ? (I wonder if this last one will make spitters competitive with flame turrets ?)

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by ske » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:41 am

The non-colliding path finding of the biters looks way better. That said, it feels like a dirty little hack. There ought to be a better way, a middle way, less hacky.

Ideas in my mind on how to "improve" pathfinding:
  • If the planned path is blocked the biter should wait a second before planning a new path. In the most simple (and stupid) case this would lead to them nicely walking in line like ducks.
  • They should not walk in line and instead attack multiple targets from multiple angles. This seems to be the case already. They seem to attack an area instead of a single building.
  • The collision boxes should be soft and allow for some overlap. Biters are not hard blocked by spitters/biters but can squeeze through. The path planning still avoids known soft and hard collision boxes.
  • The stopping position of spitters should be a bit randomized in the distance to the target. This avoids the "circle of bodies" of the attackers.
  • Spitters that are soft-blocked (by other spitters that are already in place and spitting) should continue forward towards the target until they get a free position.

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by ske » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:44 am

TheRaph wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:37 pm
...
I've got the directive "no gaming pc on vacations"
...
My wife told me that she likes to go to bed too. And so I got some more free time.
...
Sir, you need to go to bed immediately!

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by JimBarracus » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:30 am

I guess its time to beef up my defense before the update comes.
Flame thrower turrets will be even more important.

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by TheRaph » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:52 am

ske wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:44 am
TheRaph wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:37 pm
...
I've got the directive "no gaming pc on vacations"
...
My wife told me that she likes to go to bed too. And so I got some more free time.
...
Sir, you need to go to bed immediately!
Normally I would fully agree. But I've done my job right last holiday. And now she's in "first 3 months" and feels sick very often (hope that this will go better next time) - so that was "free time" in terms of "free time" :D

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by wheybags » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:04 am

TheRaph wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:37 pm
I'm not able to play that Geary Grinder. I'm on vacation and my notebook pc hasn't a mouse wheel.
Are there chances to implement a keybord-way (like + and -) ?
if someone is interested in the whole story
back to toppic: New bitter movement looks nice.
Since you went to such lengths to play the game, here's a copy with left and right arrow bound to increase/decrease size : https://seafile.wheybags.com/f/b4b2e519e6f24f73b823/
Thanks for being so interested :p

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by TheRaph » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:46 pm

wheybags wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:04 am
TheRaph wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:37 pm
Since you went to such lengths to play the game, here's a copy with left and right arrow bound to increase/decrease size : https://seafile.wheybags.com/f/b4b2e519e6f24f73b823/
Thanks for being so interested :p
That’s one small piece of code for a genius programmer, one giant leap for players.

It now works very well :)
Spoiler
Thank you so much!

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by xeln4g4 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:14 pm

"and maybe some balancing tweaks to be made" ... this change the balance and the resulting defensive strats COMPLETELY! I fear i will be forced to turn biters off ... i already spend half of my time fixing their continuous raids, because i am too lazy to find a final solution :) I think this change can not be made without approaching the whole biters war thing.

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:51 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:09 pm
RocketManChronicles wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:50 pm
I am happy with the new biter changes. That attack looks so much better now. I welcome the challenge of those attack waves rather than the 'mating dance' followed by a small stream of biters to the defenses.

Rampant AI mod may have just gotten extremely HARD with this. Waves of 200+ biters may actually break holes in defenses! I like that! :D
I thought that Rampant already implemented a fix for this issue a while ago ?
Yep, looks like it ...
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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by Omarflyjoemacky » Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:30 pm

IronCartographer wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:24 am
Omarflyjoemacky wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:56 pm
What would be extremely useful is the ability to copy one part of a map to another map (or a new map). Will the script do this? Including entities?
The map editor already allows you to import layers from existing saves. I did this just a few days ago to migrate a base with its surrounding starting area to a new map with the Island preset and Repeating Islands overall pattern.

Import layer -> Clone region on the imported layer -> Paste onto the new Nauvis surface -> Delete the imported layer again.
I had no idea you could do this.. a huge thanks IronCartographer.
"And then Bender ran."

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by Tankh » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:00 am

KoblerMan wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:07 pm
Tankh wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:55 pm
Is there any way you can learn from StarCraft zerglings when it comes to pathfinding for biters? The way zerglings almost "flow" around the map in a rush is very beautiful and is done with full collision activated. I'm sure some developer from Blizzard has done some writeup/presentation/whatever about this thing.

Edit: check this video for an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLr1co1f5-c

Also, I suspect this is going to make biter attacks much tougher since there is much less of a "one by one" attack pattern now.
I've heard the solution to this is making the AI ignore each other's collision boxes even though collision is turned on. There's some video on YT called "How Tiberian Sun fixed pathfinding" or something that goes into greater detail on the concept. Would link if I weren't on mobile.
Yeah I vaguely recall hearing someone talk about pathfinding with a similar solution at some point, but don't remember if it was regarding starcraft or some other game.

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Re: Friday Facts #316 - Map editor Lua snippets & Non-colliding Biters

Post by garath » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:16 pm

35 minutes into the game, and the biters are overwhelming my defenses.
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