Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

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Unknow0059
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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by Unknow0059 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:10 pm

I like how this landfill looks but the fact it's grid-based makes me wish it's an alternative landfill instead of a replacement.
It's an in-between for those that don't wanna go full industrial and still keep some nature in their factory. I'd rather it be a separate version of landfill instead of replacing what we have.
The_Mell wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:20 pm
ThreePounds wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:01 pm
Maybe you guys can find a texture that both looks industrial / man-made and at the same time doesn't rely on grids?
Maybe instead of these squares i could imagine some type of pushed ground like patterns you see after a bulldozer doing earthmoving.
Agree.
Last edited by Unknow0059 on Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by irbork » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:10 pm

From the loos of it is sounds like the landfill action is quite well designed. I like it however I have always thought it will be more stony texture like gravel or little rocks used to replace the water.
It's great that the man taking care of fluid mixing likes it so much. However taking under consideration the nightmares it may be best if he found other most favorite aspect of working on Factorio rather sooner than later.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by raidho36 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:30 pm

Should've just literally mix the fluids in the pipe. Structures that consume fluids would be consuming all fluids in the pipe but only using what's useful at the input.

If all fluids are consumed at the same rate then more involved mixing management than "just let it drain the useless ones" would be commanded to the player. Feeding mixed fluids to structure inputs can be made detrimental if contaminant fluids proportionally reduce speed, efficiency or productivity. Then it could be made into a gameplay mechanic by adding a Centrifuge structure that separates fluids, by making crude oil contain water, by creating recipes that output a mix of fluids and actually use a mix of fluids at the input - some existing recipes could be retooled into this.

All this would make fluid management more complicated, and it should be, as it's currently far too basic. Not to mention very easy to implement.

Not saying that this was the best idea ever - even though it was, clearly - and that it should be implemented like this. But just be sure not to fall for sunk cost fallacy. Your current solution is junk, don't be afraid to ditch it.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by ssilk » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:47 pm

Quarnozian wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:36 pm
Request for locked pipes... If there's no fluid in the pipe there should be an indication that it's empty.
This!
And the following rule should enable changing the whole pipe without rebuilding too much (I had that several times):

- If the whole system is empty. Like when freshly build, or pumped (nearly) empty.
- AND if there is only one "input" device to that system (but 1-N "output" devices). Like one pump with a filter and many refineries.
- THEN it is possible to change the input-device filter without changing/disconnecting the output devices (which can follow then).
- Maybe you can add some warnings on the devices that have wrong input now. Like wrong electricity.

I cannot reconstruct everything (too long ago), but this would help for those rare cases with outposts (delivering fluids) and you delivered the wrong fluid to the input-station before setting the corrrect recipe for the factories in the assembler part.

Maybe this would help also in those rare cases, when you might be able to mix.
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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by dee- » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:52 pm

raidho36 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:30 pm
Should've just literally mix the fluids in the pipe. Structures that consume fluids would be consuming all fluids in the pipe but only using what's useful at the input.

If all fluids are consumed at the same rate then more involved mixing management than "just let it drain the useless ones" would be commanded to the player. Feeding mixed fluids to structure inputs can be made detrimental if contaminant fluids proportionally reduce speed, efficiency or productivity. Then it could be made into a gameplay mechanic by adding a Centrifuge structure that separates fluids, by making crude oil contain water, by creating recipes that output a mix of fluids and actually use a mix of fluids at the input - some existing recipes could be retooled into this.

All this would make fluid management more complicated, and it should be, as it's currently far too basic. Not to mention very easy to implement.

Not saying that this was the best idea ever - even though it was, clearly - and that it should be implemented like this. But just be sure not to fall for sunk cost fallacy. Your current solution is junk, don't be afraid to ditch it.
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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by cpy » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:56 pm

I like the new landfill graphics, might need some perspective tune up as suggested but I can't wait to have it in game.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by ssilk » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:01 pm

raidho36 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:30 pm
Should've just literally mix the fluids in the pipe. Structures that consume fluids would be consuming all fluids in the pipe but only using what's useful at the input.
Interesting idea, worth a second thought.

But I found also this (very old idea) interesting: Two different fluids in a pipe-system destroy themselve (like mater and anti-matter) until one fluid will "win".

The player will recognise this very soon, cause the pipes will be suddenly empty and nothing is produced. In conjunction with not beeing able to mix two pipe-systems under normal circumstances this would be an obvious sign for a player, that he did something wrong.
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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by meganothing » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:04 pm

Underground pipes that are (silently?) not connected are really a bad fix for the issue of the removed half pipe. Since underground pipes are already ideally just one looong pipe I would have guessed a better solution would be to remove both halfs of the underground pipe. Either only if it would establish a new connection or always.

The former would be slightly surprising when it happens but MUCH LESS surprising than an obviously connected underground pipe that isn't connected.

The latter would even solve boskid's bug.

Not a bad idea but sometimes you want to build just one side at a time (like having a block of connections to one side in a BP) and also the destroying would not be very nice.
Last edited by meganothing on Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by fendy3002 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:05 pm

I think it's easier to revert mixing fluid to 0.16, then convert all regular pipe as single pipe (horizontal / vertical), and introduce more pipe types:
- junction pipe: can branch like current pipe
- one way pipe
- pipe splitter: split and and merge liquid

Furthermore it's better to introduce easier way to empty pipe (without pump and electricity requirement). Maybe a 1x1 or 1x2 liquid packer / unpacker (instead of assembler) that can be both fueled or electrified.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by pr0n » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:12 pm

Please stop messing with established mechanics. Was fluid mixing annoying? Yes. Is this better? Not necessarily, your gif shows a quite awful example. Does this change add to the game? Absolutely not.

Feels like so much cool stuff could have been done with all that time.

I feel like my favorite game is just getting dumbed down with every update. I dont want an easy game, that's not why *anyone* plays factorio. Think about what minecraft would be like if they went back and changed all the weird unintentional quirks that popped up in early development that are now just rock solid mechanics.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by KaliKatz » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:26 pm

Why not allow the pipes to mix, Like belts. You can have many different items on belts, should be the same for fluids. You want oil and water? Sure, send them through and split them at the end.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by Vegemeister » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 pm

I'm slightly worried about that regular grid pattern in the landfill terrain creating moire artifacts when zoomed out. Didn't the old concrete terrain have that problem? Whichever scaling method Factorio uses at <100% zoom has considerable aliasing. It's especially noticeable on electrical wires. Throw a grid into that and it'll be moire city.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by AK90 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:29 pm

Personally I think that NiceFill should be in the base game. Having a different texture for landfill looks, honestly, kinda dumb. Personal opinion please dont murder me xD
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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by chris13524 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:41 pm

Hornwitser wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:16 pm
Why do you keep hitting yourself in the head with this idea that any action by anything anywhere should be prevented if it leads to fluid mixing? It seems silly complicated and overly invasive compared to the alternative, which is to say pipes connect if they they are compatible, and does not connect if they are not compatible (see mockup below). With this method you can even prevent incorrect fluids ending up in your blueprints by having the fluid type of the pipe be a part of the blueprint.
Yes, this!

Only issue I can think of is how to convey this graphically for underground pipes and pipes that meet each other but are incompatible. I think special graphics for those cases are in order: a "capped" pipe and a "capped" underground.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by raidho36 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:42 pm

ssilk wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:01 pm
The player will recognise this very soon, cause the pipes will be suddenly empty and nothing is produced. In conjunction with not beeing able to mix two pipe-systems under normal circumstances this would be an obvious sign for a player, that he did something wrong.
Considering how quickly this drains empty the comparatively scarce fluid resources, this is a needlessly harsh punishment for a casual design mistake. But, the non-mixing fluids could displace each other, in a tug-of-war fashion.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by conn11 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:48 pm

I do like the new landfill texture very much. Using just the grass before felt a little bit like a placeholder. Still undecided if the rectangular shape or the mocked up 45degree turned looks better.
Since landfill looks different from normal terrain, shouldn’t it be handelt like other floors, esspecially with the ability to remove it?
As I can recall, one of the problems in the past is/was the indistinguishability from grass (and not beeing a separate entity) and therefore the possiblity to either create water walls or remove the surface of nauvis.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by torham » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:52 pm

Why are you trying to idiotproof Factorio? The game itself needs a certain level of mental dexterity, I do not think you need to go to such extreme level to prevent mixups.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by Hornwitser » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:16 pm

chris13524 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:41 pm
Only issue I can think of is how to convey this graphically for underground pipes and pipes that meet each other but are incompatible. I think special graphics for those cases are in order: a "capped" pipe and a "capped" underground.
The game already has graphics that would convey this situation quite well (see the mockup below.) Apart from the trivial change of making the stub ends a bit shorter, the only problematic place would be underground pipe against underground or machine, and machine against machine. Maybe the underground could end capped at a 45 degree angle instead to show that it doesn't connect.
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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by Lubricus » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:21 pm

About fluid mixing. Inputs on assembler and chem plants have never mixed fluids so they should not set fluid filter or hinder building pipes around them.

For the new fluid algoritm I must say I am not a big fan. Real pipes is usually filled with fluids and is not half empty as in factorio. The factorio simulation is more similar to an open channel flow than a pipe flow. Using the factorio simulation get the odd side effect that full pipes has more or less no flow.
For pipe flow, pressure is moving fast and can be approximated to be instant so then you can base the flow on the pressure difference between outputs and inputs instead of simulating every segment. In that way we would get an more realistic and UPS friendly pipe flow simulation. Because of the discreet nature of Factorio recipes I think the fluid boxes in the machines should stay similar as is.

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Re: Friday Facts #312 - Fluid mixing saga & Landfill terrain

Post by EpicSlayer7666 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:35 pm

for the Fluid, that is why i use "Flow control" mod. when ever i need 2 pipes close but not ever connecting, then i can have one be one way always and never change to a T junction. also i may not have played v0.17 yet but if you "mix" fluids like the literal word means... (fluid 1 type = amount, fluid type 2 = amount, and so on...) would that not mean that you are fighting what you created? like why try to make mixable fluids and try to not mix them? that is like dowsing your self in Gasoline and running in flames trying to not catch on fire... when a pipe tries to connect to a pipe with fluid in, it should just go: "if fluid type not = self, refuse connection." and "if other pipe = empty, connect share fluid type."

if you want fluids to be able to mix and have a way to not mix them then use "Flow control" mod that has all the pipes as entities that do not change automatically. so a T junction stays a T junction and do not become a + function. a strait pipe or Elbow as well. underground pipes can just use a simple do not connect if not = type. connect if 1 of the two is empty. this way it is your fault if you mix them and have to unbuild.

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