Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

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Deadlock989
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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Deadlock989 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:25 pm

Belts should have had one lane.

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Optera » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:28 pm

Inserters should not chase items
Inserter chasing items is dumb and never made sense either for precise calculated behavior, performance nor realism.
If I had to build a mechanical arm to grab n items from a constantly moving belt I'd have the far side of that claw almost scrape on the belt to use the belt movement to shovel items into the stationary inserter.

Blueprint import/export should be a modded feature
It's a players choice to use premade blueprints or not. You, the designers, can only make it more cumbersome but it wont stop players from looking up designs and manually copying those. I've seen whole design libraries which are used over and over by players in a game that doesn't even have blueprints.
Leave it as is or make it an unofficial well supported mod, I will continue using it to share designs (mostly for LTN control circuitry) with others or move whole production chains between test lab and game world.

Combat
Honestly in my playstyle biters are not even a minor annoyance. I used to feel cheaty using orbital ion cannons, but since artillery was introduced to vanilla, pounding them into dust has become even easier than with mods. I can't recall when i last fired a gun (not counting nuclear rockets, that was a few minutes ago) :twisted:

Miners shouldn't output directly to belts
Just no. I love the miner insert into miner/furnace chain for early builds too much.
One of the earliest wow moments making you feel really smart is figuring out the burner miner coal perpetuum mobile.

Pipes should work like electricity
Since we cant mix fluids anymore, sure why not. We won't be getting an in depth system like ONI anymore at this point.

Robots should take up space and time
I recall a discussion about bots being too op ending with a very good suggestion of limiting the number of bots that can interact with logistic chests similarly to how the number of bots charging at roboports is limited.

Mining furnaces and assembling machines should return the ingredients for the in-progress recipe
I think this fix broke more than it helped.

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Impatient » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:38 pm

These are my opinions on the mentioned topics:
Inserters should not chase items
+
Yes, they should not. I am pretty sure you can still implement some satisfying looking animation(s) when they are not. As you wrote, as Factorio is a game where everything can be calculated, inserters should not be the exception, especially given how crucial they are to the game. In fact, inserters are the core component of the game. No factory without inserters. Freeing the UPS used for inserters also is a big plus. There was some recent discussion about them, using UPS although inactive.
Blueprint import/export should be a modded feature
+-
IMO it should be an option before game start. But part of the core. I fear, if it becomes a mod, it would get less love by the dev team.
Single player options:
(1) start with empty BPL for this game, import not allowed (all BPs I can ever use in this game, I have to create in this game)
(2) start with existing BPL, import not allowed,
(3) allow all
Multiplayer options:
(1) start with empty BPL for this game (for all players), import not allowed (all BPs we can ever use in this game, we have to create in this game)
(2) allow all

Export should be allowed always imo. It is just nice to be able to keep the results of hard work.
Weapons shouldn't lock on
+
Biters should be more aggressive, and probe your defenses
+
Clearing bases should not leave you safe
+
If you want to make the biters strategically and the fights tactically more challenging, I am in for it 200%! I have whined about the biters beeing no challenge in various posts and when I play single player, I always play with the rampant mod activated. It adds a lot to the challenge.

Currently strategy and tactics regarding the biters are merely a spamfest. Players spam bullets, players spam defense structures, spam turrets using builder bots in a turret creep, MK2s fully spammed with PLDs spam laser beams, players drive around in tanks in circles grindily kill the hordes of biters the game engine spams into the players face and against the players base. All without little need or options to set priorities, to think about strategy or tactics. And the biters? They in general have one strategy and tactics: spam. Let us be honest, the biters are a manifestation of the concept of spam - blind numbers - to a degree, so that even Warhammer gets jealous.

This no brainer is in stark contrast to the rest of Factorios gameplay.

I bet, if you decide to overhaul the biterbattle and call for ideas, they would be countless. I don't want to get started here.
Pipes should work like electricity
+
Indeedishly. I personally see no need for such a fine grained simulation of fluid mechanics.
  • The cases where distance in pipes are an interesting challenge are almost non-existent and made absurde anyways as one underground pipe counts as one surface pipe (this didn't change or did it?).
  • Throughput is more interesting but the only case where it really matters is a reactor setup.
Ideas:
  • You could dumb this down in the way, that you treat a network of connected pipes as one entity with wells (offshore pumps, oil wells, assemblers, chem plants, refineries, boilers and pumps) and sinks (assemblers, chem plants, refineries, steam engines, turbines, boilers and pumps). This would mean, that each pipe has unlimited and frictionless throughput. But because of the afformentioned points most players would not even notice the change. (Well, after I wrote this, I noticed this is exactly the power network like behavior, you are suggesting. :roll: )
  • Another thing that comes to my mind is a hybrid solution: Change the simulation from dynamic to static. Everytime a pipe, upipe, well or sink is added or removed to/from the pipe network, calculate distances and throughputs. After that you treat ohne pipe network like one power grid and production, consumption and the content in the pipe network are simple additions and subtractions (with the calculated throughput multipliers applied) every tick for the wells and sinks.
    I think that special one time calculation would have O(((n^2)+n)*0.5) (sum formula by gauss) where n is the number of all wells and sinks in the network. But it is a one timer. Also results don't have to be available instantly. Players are used to that with the fluid network anyways. Put it in an extra thread, that can take some seconds. O(0.5*((n^2)+n)) does not seem too dangerous.
As a side note: Put directional pipes into the base game at last. This long exists as mod and I really don't understand why pipes have to link up automatically in all directions.
Adventure mode
+
Yes please. Anything. I long thought about how this could be achieved via a mod. What could be the goal? To find the human colony with the spaceport of course!
But it must be really far away. There are no signs of human made structures around here. And as long as I haven't crafted the device for automatic detection of friend and foe, turrets will automatically fire upon on me anyways! So I could not even contact the humans if I found the colony or a manned outpost. Parts for that device I might find in very distant, destroyed or abandoned outposts. But I also need to eat, sleep and be secure. Especially at night the wildlife is dangerous. Normal wildlife is dangerous enough, but the biters? With my current gear, encountering more than one or two means certain death. So how do I travel? there is jungle averywhere. Chopping one tree takes me half a day. I found that crashed recon plane. How can I repair it? I need to make a raft to get around on the water. Good god, will I ever make it? ...
Robots should take up space and time
+
Sounds interesting. At least making robots much more expensive both to build and to operate. <Thoughts about a mod, that does this.>
Items should have volume and mass
++
I never understood how I can carry around multiple refineries in my pocket. Let's cut the mincraft rooted thinking. Buildings start with a construction site. Then the parts and materials have to be delivered to the construction site. Finally I or the robots have to assemble them.
Last edited by Impatient on Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Oktokolo » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:47 pm

ownlyme wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:09 pm
Wow, the points by wheybags really fueled my anxiety that you're going to ruin the game..
You don't have to worry as Kovarex actually plays his own creation and will continue preventing others from killing it.

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by VFaalcatnodriiro » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:49 pm

Remember that since we are focusing on 1.0, these ideas are currently nothing more than a cause for heated discussions in our office. But let us know what you think (on our forum) and maybe we will change our mind based on the feedback. (maybe after 1.0...)
Boy oh boy .... you should have taken note of that sentence with your oil changes. How in the world would you think it is a good idea to transform the Oil Refinery in a 5x5 pipe which with some magic just turns Oil into Petroleum Gas.....

But back to topic.... on Twinsen:
Inserters should not chase items (Twinsen)
No. Why? It takes away the fun, the challenge of brown- or black-outs, the optimisation of space while handling belt- and inserter-speeds. Don't do it.
Blueprint import/export should be a modded feature (Twinsen)
Absolutely. Or, on a second thougt... No.. Just make it a hidden option, just like the Research Queue.
wheybags
I don't even know where to start.... No. Just no. To everything. Holy mother of god... :shock:
There needs to be someting done with the boilers, though. I have not seen a new player/streamer who didn't try to connect the water-in/outlet to their steam-engines. But taking away the water-outlet is just bull...
Adventure mode (TOGoS)
Nice ideas. Maybe for the first expansion pack?
Robots should take up space and time (TOGoS)
Are we starting bots vs. belts again? Please don't.
Items should have volume and mass (TOGoS)
Yeah, a little bit of a "max mass" amount to carry around would be nice. But maybe only for the hard-mode of the game? (A mode where the Oil chang....sorry^^)
Power-user hotkeys (posila)
Yes, please!. More options to do things are always appreciated.
Mining furnaces and assembling machines should return the ingredients for the in-progress recipe (Rseding)
Wait, WHAT?!? :shock: :shock: :shock: Why was this removed in the first place? Holy sh.....
This made me just start the game (for the first time since the Oil-BS) and download Bilkas Mod just to increase the Download-Count,
Because 68370, 67923 and 70673 are bullshit.
But now please excuse me, I'm hooked to a game which gives me options how to play and (maybe some day in the future?) "win" the game. A game which is complex and fun and doesn't punish it's players for changing their mind. Some of you shOuld defiNetly try It. Klei did a really good job.

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by tsen » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:49 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:25 pm
Belts should have had one lane.
More than that: We should be able to place and manipulate belt lanes separately.

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Oktokolo » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:52 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:25 pm
Belts should have had one lane.
+1

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by ssilk » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:41 pm

My opinions:
Inserters should not chase items:
I loved the (physically correct) moving belts before 0.12. Well from gameplay that was horrible. But That brought in some unpredictable aspect. You meant you understood everything, but you forgot just that. I think this is a core feature of factorio, that it often tries to behave physically correct and so some "happy accidents" could happen. It should not be touched.
Blueprint import/export should be a modded feature:
I use that import often. How did he built that nuclear controller? Or there is a timeing-switch, which resets. How does it work? You read through the text, but no comprende. I understand such complex stuff most times only, when it is working.
How about a compromise:
Limit the import/export to 50x50 tiles and let it expand through a mod?
Weapons shouldn't lock on:
Well, sounds interesting. For me playing most time on a laptop with touchbar, I would have no chance anymore without auto-aiming, but I'm sure I would find other strategies. As long as this is guaranteed (there are many ways to kill), go for it.
Biters should be more aggressive, and probe your defenses:
I use the Rampant-mod, and YES!!!, I stongly support this, because of the interesting experiences I have from that. They don't need to be much more agressive, but they should be much more clever, depending on how much you pollute. They should find the smallest gap in your defense, constant pressure on weak points, extremly agressive try to kill the player, try to kick out power production, eat belts from coal lines or oil, fight radars, attack single defense points.
Clearing bases should not leave you safe:
Well, of course. :) But I think to more clever startegies, cause you can simply place artillery against their return. I let it open how that can look like. There are hundrets of ideas in Suggestions, personally I think the idea of an underground worm, attacking directly into your base and through the hole other biters etc. will follow would be a really satisfing event when mastered.
Miners shouldn't output directly to belts:
Nah, I think that would implement usless consistency.

I would like to point to another aspect: The forgotten Loaders. I really like the implementation of Deadlocks Compact Loaders. Limit usage to boxes only: Voilla, a really useful new game-feature.
Boilers shouldn't have a water output:
This is interesting, cause Factorio worked like that until 0.16. I think the problem is, that the steam output is not very visible yet. Boiler output is one of those designs, that are "difiicult".
Pipes should work like electricity:
Definitly no. As said above THAT IS THE BASE OF THE GAME!
I would instead vote for trying to do that calculations on the graphics card - it is predestined for such jobs. Yes I know that it might me a nightmare to make such calculations on graphics-card, cause you loose a part of the predictibility.

And BTW: What's about the new physic system, that was cancelled short before this release?
Adventure mode:
I played many worlds and Factorio becomes a very strange and never to forget game, when you go outside for exploration (either in the early game, or much later in the endgame). There is this vast, untouched country, the beautiful nature. And now some ancient ruines? YES! That was what I have missed in such situation: What will I find?
Definitely on my list of to be played mods: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/ZAdv_ruins, https://mods.factorio.com/mod/ZAdventure, https://mods.factorio.com/mod/AbandonedRuins
Robots should take up space and time:
Huhhh... what a difficult question. All in all I would like to keep it as it is.
Items should have volume and mass:
I would support this, if you also intoduce boxing (compression of items). Cause they solve a lot other (already mentioned) problems, I already mentioned Deadlocks Mod.
Power-user hotkeys:
Of course. The whole personal setup needs much more love.
Mining furnaces and assembling machines should return the ingredients for the in-progress recipe:
This sound like a config-option for turnaments: All is returned in normal case and in turnament it's off.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
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I still like small signatures...

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Koub » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:59 pm

So since there's not much happening, this week we decided to explore some unpopular or controversial opinions about the game from within the team.
Well, thank you very much, I absolutely love moderating controversial topics :mrgreen:
Inserters should not chase items
I'm mixed on this one. I like the way inserters do their stuff, but I also like predictability.
Blueprint import/export should be a modded feature
I couldn't care less if blueprint importing/exporting was removed.
But on the other hand, I'd love the blueprint library to be reworked into something intuitive, centralizing all blueprint manipulation, (and removing the blueprint inventory object while we're at it). I don't want to share my blueprints, and don't need others' blueprints.
I do admit, however, the feature has some use for testing purpose.
Biters should be more aggressive, and probe your defenses
I'm mixed with this one. I have a love/hate relation with biters : I absolutely suck at fighting them, but the game feels so bland when I disable them or play peaceful. I need the pressure they put on me, and fear I'd have to play without them if they became more difficult to fight.
On the other hand, my issues fighting them is because I do not fight them optimally, as if knowing their tricks. I can't help walling completely my base. Letting open parts feels so wrong I can't play like that (even if it's wasteful of ressources). But walling is also a pain in the ass. So much yes but no but yes but no.
Clearing bases should not leave you safe
Clearing bases already doesn't leave me safe. Biters very quickly reexpand into cleared territory, only constant re-clearing or artillery prevents biter getting back to my wall.
Miners shouldn't output directly to belts
I like the fact that mining structures spit everything in front of them while crafting structures need inserters to move stuff in/out.
Boilers shouldn't have a water output
I did prefer the straightforwardness of 0.14 boilers. I still need time, when setting up my first steam array on a new map, to figure how it will grow to reserve the space.
Pipes should work like electricity
I'd be OK with that. However, I'd stiil like to have some limit of how much a pipe can let through though.
Adventure mode
Not really interested, wouldn't play it.
Robots should take up space and time
Actually, I'm in the minority who thinks that bots don't deserve a nerf, but a buff. I don't like the fact that as you research bot speed upgrades, your roboport infrastructure becomes more and more insufficient.
Saying robots need a nerf because of turret creep feels wrong. If you don't want people to turret creep, it's the turret creep that should be nerfed, not the bots.
Also please, give us low tech construction bots available early enough that we have them as soon as we start having to scale our mining/smelting infrastructure. And make these low tech bots be ingredients of regular con bots, so that we don't have more useless stuff once out of the tier (burner mining drills, pistol, ..., that's for you).
Items should have volume and mass
I disagree. I think it's a case of realism vs fun. The current situation is well within my suspension of incredulity, and I find the resulting game enjoyable.
If I wanted ultimate realism, I'd play IRL more, and computer games less :)
Power-user hotkeys
I'm all for hotkeys for everything, BUT all exotic features have no default hotkey, so that they are not triggered accidentally by the newbie.
Once the player feels confident enough to mess with them, he's experienced enough to deal with the consequences.
Mining furnaces and assembling machines should return the ingredients for the in-progress recipe
Yes please :)
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by TK_Neg » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:04 pm

"Weapons shouldn't lock on"

I've looked at the gifs on Klonans mod and think that all the bullets having travel time could be a nice change, were something like that to be implemented.

"Biters should be more aggressive, and probe your defenses"

100% agree with this. I enjoy fighting back the hordes created by the Misanthrope, Bobs Enemies, and Rampant mods. But at the same time, I also enjoy fiddling around with new mod packs at my own leisure without the pressure of impending death weighing down on me. Is a compromise in the form of aggression and intelligence sliders possible?

"Clearing bases should not leave you safe"

I rather like with the concept of a global pollution rating. It seems like it could work hand-in-hand with the current evolution factor, in giving you an idea of how much the natives hate you. I personally play with enemy base expansion disabled though, as I'm not keen on clearing and re-clearing the same nests out numerous times. But with a global pollution rating, you could still clear the bases out to expand, and the biters could still come knocking on your doors.

"Items should have volume and mass"

From a FortressCraft: Evolved perspective, this seems like a poor idea to implement, since this game i'd played before and after such a change was introduced (i picked up a mod that reverted said change.) If a change like this was introduced, I wonder how that would effect your personal logistics and item requests.
Last edited by TK_Neg on Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by jan1i3 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:04 pm

I'll say the thing that is most important to me:

Keyboard shortcuts are amazing!

As an example, the exoskeleton and personal roboport toggle is really nice for me early because of power usage/management, and roboport later as well of course so you can ghost plan stuff easily.

EDIT:
well i should mention, i posted my oppinion/thoughts about deleting itmes when reseting a recipe in some way in the bug report

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Notawallplan » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:32 pm

Concerning the bots bit.

I kinda like the way they are implemented right now, but i do like the idea of building taking time (ala TA or SupCom). It'd make creeping harder and require manual intervention to actually clear biter nests up close. The way i would actually implement it (in a mechanical sense) is taking notes from 8-Bit Guy's PlanetX3's building system, where build time is directly related to how many tiles a given building takes up times 2. You could give the player a small bonus that scales the more construction bots they have in command (and they fly out to actually help), and also play around with having construction bots assist each other to speed construction (thus making their number slightly more important in the grand scheme of things). Power poles, pipes, and belts can remain instant.

Robot Attrition (which is already a mod that exists for the game) can also help with the prevailing bot-fo strategy by requiring some kind of bot construction backend in order to keep the logistics going. Could have the chance scale based on # of bots that currently exist in an area.

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by ownlyme » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:43 pm

if you don't know what to spend your time on, here are a few points:
- more modding possibilities
- more graphical assets
- fix multiplayer lag

in factorio2 you could add heightmaps, but for now i don't think it would turn out that well? dunno, age of empires2 is 2d too or? and it has heightmaps..
mods.factorio.com/user/ownlyme
My requests: uiRelative||Grenade arc||Blueprint allies||Creeps forget command/ don't get removed||Player Modifiers||textbox::selection||Better Heat IF||Singleplayer RCON||Serializing function refs in global table

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by HalfPastZulu » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:44 pm

My 2 Cents

Inserters
That nice organic feel thats in the game should be treated like a precious metal. It's what make games great!
How else are you to know your using the wrong inserter for the job? Upgrade inserter... lesson learned... move on.

Blueprints
I am apprehensive to change anything about blueprints but if you only stopped them from being imported or exported I probably wouldn't make to much of a fuss. I understand the dangers of "Instant Gratification" in games.

Biters
I have always been for a much more robust evolution of biters. I would like to see a much more diverse biter type and maybe boss's.

Miners
No ! Just NO!

Boilers are Fine ! !

Pipes
Liquids seem fine to me. Maybe some more pipe types like valves and switches.

Adventure Mode
Go play that 3D rip off game!
Waste of developer time.

Bots
Leave poor bots alone... I wish they called them drones...

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Splitframe » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:53 pm

Here my opinions:

Inserters should not chase items
Mixed.
It would be cool to have inserters grab items with pin point precision and not chasing them.
I know that this would cost a lot of performance though, but items just teleporting into the
inserters hands would also be ugly as sin. Which would be a shame since the game made huge
improvements in the visual department.

As a compromise, you could make it be manageable by the player, by some simple modes
like "always try to immediately grab the nearest item"(like it is now) or
"always return to null position and wait for an item to go by". For the latter an item that goes by
a waiting inserter will always be grabbed. The movement to the respective side is triggered only after
it leaves the possible grab range of the inserter up the belt. Since the distance is short not much
motion is needed and the calculation is kept to a minimum.

Blueprint import/export should be a modded feature
No opinion.

Combat/Biters
Agree.

Miners shouldn't output directly to belts
I wouldn't mind either way. But I also see no reason to switch.
Not everything has to be homogenised.
It's okay if miners are an outlier in some way.

Boilers shouldn't have a water output
No opinion.

Pipes should work like electricity
Strongly disagree.
I would even go as far as expanding fluid mechanics by adding Big pipes that take up 2x1 blocks or even 4x1.
It would be cool to have an alternative to fluid wagons, even though I love trains, by having two big ass pipes
going through the desert which need to be protected.

Adventure mode
No opinion.

Robots should take up space and time
Strongly agree.

I have no solution for the collision problem, you might want to have 4x4 quadrants that always overlap by half in both directions.
And a robot only scans the quadrant it is in and the 4 surrounding it. Since robots are rather slow you have now
don't have a function that degrades exponentially and infinitely with the amount of robots, but N is limited to
the amount of robots which fit in a 8x8 space ( the four quadrants that surround the bot is currently in).
Though a possible problem would be stutter stepping when queues occur.
Just some thoughts about this that came to mind though.

Items should have volume and mass
Agree.

Power-user hotkeys
No opinion.

Mining furnaces and assembling machines should return the ingredients for the in-progress recipe
That's mainly a robot problem I guess? When I manually remove structures I can just wait for them to finish.
Maybe just make it so that when a building is marked to construction it only stops after finishing what it
currently produces and is not removed by bots until then. A problem would be power then. Maybe
add a shortcut that lets you remove all but power structures. Or power structures are always removed last.

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by kbk » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:55 pm

Please kindly behold my 0.05P on some FFF topics :D

Inserters shouldn't chase – Against. The game just feels really cozy with this in situations when low on power inserter tries to take up something from a fast belt. To me this is purely a part of an aesthetical signature of the game which makes Factorio the very itself. Please, just no.
Pipes should work like electricity – Against it for the same reasons. I also agree with people who think that electricity might have been more complex instead.

Blueprint exchange functionality as a mod – Strongly disagree. Indeed, blueprinting makes singular playthroughs shorter and easier and provides instant gratification to some extent. At the same time it allows for a richer endgame experience and for easier exchange of ideas (especially so with circuit networking). Keeping a BP library is like a "New game plus" mode of sorts for me.

Biters should be more aggressive – Against. They turn out to be enough of a nuisance already overall. But then...
Biters should probe your defenses – Yes. As it has already been said here earlier, there should at least be something that helps biters knock at different wall sections each other time.
Clearing bases should not leave you safe – Agree if this implies not just that biter squads might form a new nest under the radar (like they do during the demo scenario) or attack a new wall. A couple of days ago there was a nice suggestion of a stalking biter specialist that attacks player when he is off the base.

Boilers' water output ban – Rather against. While it adds nothing to the game and even does not make it simpler, it also kinda strips player of some degree of freedom.
Miners' direct output ban – Against it for the same reasons.

Adventure mode – I... dunno? Looks like a custom scenario/campaign rather than a mode to me.

Space, time, volume and mass – Partially agree only on matters of time and volume. While almost everything else only breaks core game mechanics in one way or another, there really are good ideas. First, there might be some direct player involvement in actual erecting and demolishing of buildings (e.g. not just a tiny stop from other actions like walking, but a progressbar, maybe an animation of unfolding) to justify conbots taking their time in this. Second, I guess some big buildings really might require a multi-stage foundation (namely silo, as well as refineries and reactors) and thus might only be buildable with help of bots (i.e. temporarily withdraw some conbots from logistic system until something is built).
Ther might be more superstructures than just silo and reactor. I'd like to suggest some eco greenhouse that could help remove pollution, partially similar to https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Bio_Industries mod. I'd also like to praise the train/tank factory idea some people suggested here, which also fits nicely into the "multi-stage huge building" concept.

Power-user hotkeys – Totally into this. Train auto/manual toggle, please

Ingredients in-progress return – Against. Or hell, there might be some garbage processing and player interference might give him garbage in the inventory instead so that placing fingers in working machinery will be discouraged.

Thanks

T-A-R
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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by T-A-R » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:44 pm

tldr: Thanks for sharing these thoughts. Mainly i tend to like additional features, but they tend to introduce new inconsistencies or dependencies. It is a slippery slope which i cannot imagine without concern.

In detail

My partner does not like to play the game. And it is fine like that.

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by AcolyteOfRocket » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:14 am

I don't think biters should attack train lines, and in fact I don't think train lines should even be damaged by splash damage, such as from worms or spitters. The reason I think this is there is no automatable mechanism for repairing rails in the field, except to extend your base to cover that location.

I enjoy creating bases with independant outposts and the only way they can be connected is by rail - if factorio had other types of overland transport (truck, crawler, airplane) then maybe attacking rails would be OK - but it doesn't. This means rails have to be sacred otherwise repair becomes a grind because of the way the game is designed. Allowing monoblock bases or outpost bases is more creative than forcing everything to be mono becuase you can't automate rail repair.

On the other hand biters SHOULD attack power poles since it is always possible to give an outpost an independent power supply. By all means allow those who do not agree to disable this.

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Rebmes » Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:45 am

I love this "theory of Factorio" post!! I'm gonna go right ahead and follow up the others with my own opinions and experiences <3

"Inserters should not chase items"
This is probably the biggest one in the list lol I can see why you don't want to mess with this.


"Blueprint import/export should be a modded feature"
Totally 100% agree. I've used this once or twice, but indeed it likely robbed me of the enjoyment of creating the blueprints myself.

"Combat/Biters"
"Miners shouldn't output directly to belts"
"Boilers shouldn't have a water output"
"Pipes should work like electricity"
For me all those things are awesome just the way they are, except maybe combat and biters. Miners going on belts feels good, and that's important. Like the inserter theory above, the bottom line is that the game needs variety - not everything can be "perfect" or all work the same way, or it'd get boring. Kinda like the boilers having a water output; it's also a good early-game way to make sure the player is able to identify how connectors work on buildings that use liquids.

"Adventure mode"
Make a second game? :p there are some games that our wives will simply never play, and I wouldn't want to turn Factorio into something my wife would enjoy.

"Robots should take up space and time"
I've never used robots all that much. I never really saw the point, somehow. It's rare that I need a lot of something right away; belts and trains and personal construction bots are pretty much what I use - maybe a small logistic system to take care of my inventory.

"Items should have volume and mass"
This could be promising, but again, sounds like an idea for a different game at this point ^^

"Power-user hotkeys"
Re-thinking the hotkeys a bit wouldn't hurt. For example, I can't ever figure out which button switches weapons, and it doesn't help that nothing happens if the next gun isn't doesn't have ammo in the slot yet.

"Mining furnaces and assembling machines should return the ingredients for the in-progress recipe"
This seems like it should be a priority, to be honest. Fix the bug with something other than a baseball bat with nails in it.



This was fun. Keep in mind also that some strings you pull out can always be replaced with mods, for those who are used to a certain way of doing things - and all of your new players going forward can form their own opinions. Thanks for creating such a masterpiece as Factorio ^^

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Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Trblz » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:12 am

Here's my approach/2 cents:

in the attempt to make Factorio easier for beginners, I am afraid you're loosing some of the more experienced players.
Simplifying the oil production or Pipes should work like electricity.

All of these make it easier and more predictable for beginners. However for a more advanced user, this is a nice challenge too: how to deal with too much of byproducts (light oil etc), how to deal with limited throughput in pipes and pumps, how to optimize inserter timing in mega factories.

My recommendation is different player modes: beginner (simple oil, pipes like electricity, simple biter AI, ...) and advanced (oil pre FF#305, fluid dynamics, advanced biter AI, more respawn ....).

Yes these things can be done via Mods but that defeats the Vanilla experience that some also want.

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