Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Regular reports on Factorio development.
conn11
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by conn11 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:49 pm

Oktokolo wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:32 pm
The noobs get vanilla and we get the modded experience. It is a bit like with the old Bethesda Games (before they've gone MMORPG): They are sort of playable and somewhat fun the first time without mods - but the real fun comes when you selected your personal set of some dozens to a hundred mods altering almost every aspect of the game. With Factorio the initial fun and the fun gained by modding are just some orders of magnitude greater - but in principle it is the same thing.
So practically Vanilla should be inferior for better playability. But considering the development history, many of the great aspects of Vanilla were adapted from mods. IMO players shouldn’t be required to use mods to play an „adequate“ Vanilla.

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5041
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Koub » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:50 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:57 am
Serenity wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:53 am
That's still somewhat hidden. Alt-mode should really be on by default. Why is it default off? You come across so many newbie screenshots where they try to show you something and alt-mode is off so you can't tell what is what.
It would immediately solve the steam engine issue for most people. I don't get why removing game mechanics is the preferring solution here compared to better visualization
No. There are situations where alt-mode is an ugly visual overload. I want it left off until I choose to turn it on.
[...]
I disagree : if Alt-Mode is statistically activated 95% of the time and deactivated (on purpose) 5% of the time, then default setting should have it activated, and allow people to deactivate it at will. Default setting should always be the overall more used (if the bias is significant).

I have no statistics, and I don't know if there are. My intuition says me that alt mode is overall massively more used than "no alt-mode". But I still might be wrong.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

User avatar
Oktokolo
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 677
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Oktokolo » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:01 pm

conn11 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:49 pm
IMO players shouldn’t be required to use mods to play an „adequate“ Vanilla.
There are multiple definitions of „adequate“ Vanilla depending on whom you ask. The devs obviously try to implement a compromise that is pretty adequate for more players than before without becomming casual enough to make the the core audience shy away before discovering the mod portal...

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1315
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:03 pm

Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:50 pm
I disagree : if Alt-Mode is statistically activated 95% of the time and deactivated (on purpose) 5% of the time, then default setting should have it activated, and allow people to deactivate it at will. Default setting should always be the overall more used (if the bias is significant).

I have no statistics, and I don't know if there are. My intuition says me that alt mode is overall massively more used than "no alt-mode". But I still might be wrong.
And this is why a game developer should completely ignore vague intuitions about made-up statistics from single players when it comes to setting game defaults.

Players just have to learn alt-mode is a thing, and turn it on. They go through that epiphany precisely once in the history of time. It's not exactly onerous.

I'm taking it as a sign of this game's maturity that people are dwelling on such total trivia now.

AzerDraco
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by AzerDraco » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:11 pm

To all the Developers working on this game:

YOU. ARE. AWESOME.

This game has so much depth and complexity that it can quite literally overwhelm you if you don't break tasks into smaller pieces. At the same time, however, it is so simple that even young children can grasp the basic ideas and learn the fundamentals of supply chains, cause and effect, and even relational dependencies, all while "playing a game".

As for your news posts, there have been many players that have already posted their own input, and many of the ideas that I am putting forward have been stated in earlier posts. I am simply lending my voice to theirs, and not attempting to "steal credit" from anyone.

1) Inserters Chasing Items
I rarely ever have a problem with inserters chasing items, mostly because I tend to favor compact and efficient factories that maximize throughput and compartmentalize individual supply chains. (Example: Ore is delivered to a smelting area and stored in a central location. Ore is then pulled from the storage into the Smelting process line and delivered to a second storage location. Ancillary process lines requiring that smelted Ore (ie: Iron Plate to Steel Plate) then pull from that storage, run through the process line, and get delivered to another storage.
The only time that I have encountered "Inserter Chase Scenarios" has been when integrating two process lines together and the outputs were being used at near the production rate (no "buffer" on the belts).

I say keep the inserters as they are. It gives a reason to upgrade to better inserters as your production allows.

2) Blueprints
I agree with both sides of the argument here.

Blueprints ARE very convenient so that you can store your hard work for later use. It takes a lot of effort to make a finely tuned production line and that work should not be lost between game iterations.

However, half the fun of this game IS that refinement (in my opinion, at least) While some may be great at the whole process, some may not be great at the initial set up, but are great at refining and improving.

Don't remove the blueprint feature, please. I enjoy creating and fine tuning my factories, and I really like being able to blueprint something that works for later use, and if someone I end up playing with thinks my factories are awesome, I like the idea of being able to share them with that player in an easy and simple way.

3) Miners, Boilers, Pipes, and Electricity
I believe that miners should be the only entity that is INITIALLY able to unload directly, other than entities requiring a pipe.
I further believe that ALL entities should have research, at roughly the T4 level, that would allow EVERYTHING to input/output directly.

When I say input/output directly, I mean without requiring an inserter placed next to the machine.
Perhaps spawning a new crafting recipe requiring the entity plus inserters to craft.
The entity would gain "input/output points" similar to the Chemical Plant or Oil Refinery.

As for Boilers they are pretty self-explanatory in my opinion. Water passes through in a straight line, Fuel goes in on one side of that line, Steam exits on the other. Perfect example of KISS.

Pipes and electricity, I have to admit, could use a few tweaks. Pipes, for example, could have a Flow Rate measurement on the tooltip when they are filled. Have this as a percentage followed by a FPM metric (ie: 50% (60 FPM)). With this information, it should be rather easy for even a novice player to work out where they need to drop pumps and/or add inputs into the pipe system in order to maximize throughput.
As for electricity, I like the idea a previous post stated. Each power pole has a maximum amount of power that it can deliver at any moment, and the further you are from the initial power plant, the more that the power drops off without proper management (substations, secondary power generation areas, etc.) This would add a level of realism and complexity to a core mechanic of the game.

4) Adventure Mode
While Factorio may not be about exploration, it can be about WHY you are constructing that gigantic, pollution belching, biter infuriating monstrosity.

Perhaps a branch of the Space Tech level could see you build a Starport and begin exporting all of those parts and items directly?
Perhaps there is a settlement nearby that you are involved with? You need to set up defenses and supply them with everything that they need, as well as secure terrain so that they can expand as needed (Player-ally "Colonist" NPC entities based directly on biters.)
Those colonists could then be trained to become either Defense (Riflemen, Grenadiers, Rocketmen, etc) and given weapons and armor to fight biters, or they can become Support (Engineer, Chemist, Operator, etc) and they are able to act as small area beacons for factory machines.

Having some REASON to be manufacturing items, rather than just research (or massive metric tons of ammo) would be really awesome.

conn11
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by conn11 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:23 pm

Oktokolo wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:01 pm
conn11 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:49 pm
IMO players shouldn’t be required to use mods to play an „adequate“ Vanilla.
There are multiple definitions of „adequate“ Vanilla depending on whom you ask. The devs obviously try to implement a compromise that is pretty adequate for more players than before without becomming casual enough to make the the core audience shy away before discovering the mod portal...
Sure it's relative. But shouldn't Vanilla be able to stand for its self and not give only a "somewhat playable" experience. Let mods modify the gamplay, but not make them somewhat required to have the Vanilla we enjoy right now.
So far for the theory; UI changes conserning the Alt-mode would take care of most of the mentioned rookie mistakes without handholding the player to much.

meganothing
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by meganothing » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:26 pm

conn11 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:49 pm
So practically Vanilla should be inferior for better playability. But considering the development history, many of the great aspects of Vanilla were adapted from mods. IMO players shouldn’t be required to use mods to play an „adequate“ Vanilla.
Define inferior.

There is no absolute in fun. Bobs Mod might be hundred times more fun than vanilla to some veteran player who played vanilla to death. But other players (and especially most beginners) won't see any fun in that mod.

Mods are not better than vanilla, but there are so many of them that you can switch and always find something new. If you only had one mod available, you would get fed up with it too. In that sense everybody will either stop playing eventually or use mods to get some new experience.

PS: I have been playing Factorio regularily for the last 3 years and still haven't played a single mod

conn11
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by conn11 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:49 pm

meganothing wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:26 pm
conn11 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:49 pm
So practically Vanilla should be inferior for better playability. But considering the development history, many of the great aspects of Vanilla were adapted from mods. IMO players shouldn’t be required to use mods to play an „adequate“ Vanilla.
Define inferior.

There is no absolute in fun. Bobs Mod might be hundred times more fun than vanilla to some veteran player who played vanilla to death. But other players (and especially most beginners) won't see any fun in that mod.

Mods are not better than vanilla, but there are so many of them that you can switch and always find something new. If you only had one mod available, you would get fed up with it too. In that sense everybody will either stop playing eventually or use mods to get some new experience.

PS: I have been playing Factorio regularily for the last 3 years and still haven't played a single mod
A little bit out of context without the original quoted post. But one possible definition might be that removing well working features from Vanilla because they seem to be to hard to grasp (at least with low effort). For example removing boiler connectivity because new players appear to miss the Alt-Mode (at least this explonation could be proposed).
The question is what addition can Vanilla adept from mods to be even more interesting and allow a different playstyle, something in the territory of an adventure mode might to that. Or I've read the intriguing proposition to increase terrain diversity somewhat like the aliens biomes mod dose it.
This is of course getting a bit vauge on this general level of discussion.
PS: I to play mostly unmodded (or very slightly modded).

rcp27
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by rcp27 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:36 pm

Taking the related topics of “instant construction bots” and “two locomotives and a rocket silo in my pocket”, I think there is a potentially useful solution to both: assembly machines can’t make final products. If the player wants to build an assembly machine, you take the plates, circuits and gears from your inventory, and the build time is the craft time. Construction bots then become mobile assembly machines. They bring the materials, and once the materials are collected, they build the items on site using the item craft time. Deconstruction is then a process of breaking down structures to their component parts, which also addresses issues like “can’t I get the stone back from all my early game stone furnaces”.

This makes the bots vulnerable in a combat environment, but for large construction projects a large fleet of personal bots or base bots will still make blueprints buildable in a reasonable timeframe. It would make large “mall” setups redundant, and I think would need some implementation of early game bots important (but perhaps a personal roboport from the start and a small finite supply of construction bots that is limited until you get new bot construction going could help).

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5041
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Koub » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:16 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:03 pm
Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:50 pm
I disagree : if Alt-Mode is statistically activated 95% of the time and deactivated (on purpose) 5% of the time, then default setting should have it activated, and allow people to deactivate it at will. Default setting should always be the overall more used (if the bias is significant).

I have no statistics, and I don't know if there are. My intuition says me that alt mode is overall massively more used than "no alt-mode". But I still might be wrong.
And this is why a game developer should completely ignore vague intuitions about made-up statistics from single players when it comes to setting game defaults.

Players just have to learn alt-mode is a thing, and turn it on. They go through that epiphany precisely once in the history of time. It's not exactly onerous.
I totally agree on the fact my intuitions shouldn't be what drives Factorio's development. Hopefully, your own vague intuitions and arbitrary assumtions will be ignored the same. I'd hate a game designed with the "L2P, noob" philosophy you seem to profess.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1315
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:41 pm

Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:16 pm
I totally agree on the fact my intuitions shouldn't be what drives Factorio's development. Hopefully, your own vague intuitions and arbitrary assumtions will be ignored the same. I'd hate a game designed with the "L2P, noob" philosophy you seem to profess.
Don't put words in my mouth. Try behaving like an actual moderator for once.

I expect this'll earn me another threatening PM.

Muche
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Muche » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:55 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:41 pm
Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:16 pm
I totally agree on the fact my intuitions shouldn't be what drives Factorio's development. Hopefully, your own vague intuitions and arbitrary assumtions will be ignored the same. I'd hate a game designed with the "L2P, noob" philosophy you seem to profess.
Don't put words in my mouth.
Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:03 pm
Players just have to learn alt-mode is a thing, and turn it on. They go through that epiphany precisely once in the history of time. It's not exactly onerous.

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1315
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:07 pm

You can quote that as many times as you like and it's still not what I said.

I expect better.

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5041
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Koub » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:32 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:41 pm
Don't put words in my mouth. Try behaving like an actual moderator for once.
Being a moderator is one thing, it forbids me neither to have an opinion not to express it as a member of the community, as long as I'm not being offensive, insulting, or any other toxic behaviour.
I always try to be respectful and not insulting or offensive, despite I sometimes would be inclined to. If you think my post is a personal attack, feel free to get in touch with another moderator for arbitration, as I disagree with you.
I do not put words in your mouth, I just express my own understanding (hence the seem) based on a number of recent-ish contributions of yours, as (for the most recent) :
Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:57 am
A pox on all of this noob hand-holding.
Now I don't want to hijack this thread with off topic chatter, and I don't see how this contributes positively to the game, so I'll end my contribution to this here.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1315
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:36 pm

Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:32 pm
I always try to be respectful
Try harder. You're not very good at it.

mmmPI
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by mmmPI » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:46 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:25 pm
Belts should have had one lane.
Deadlock989 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:58 pm
Sure thing, I'll get right to it on the day that people stop asking for the game to be dumbed down to match their own personal play style.
Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:53 am
But don't let facts get in the way of drama. That always goes down well on internet discussion boards.
Wasn't your suggestion serious ? it was sarcasm right ? hard to tell maybe one could use a little bit of coherence or just explain.

User avatar
eradicator
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3527
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by eradicator » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:06 pm

I'm for default-off because for newbies it's unnessecary information overload, and accounting for beginner-clumsiness it's better to accidentially turn it *on* and gain something, than accidentially turning it off and feel completely lost. But honestly i'd also prefer if factorio as a whole somehow managed to get all the information out of the obstrusive overlay and *into* the world...
Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:36 pm
Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:32 pm
I always try to be respectful
Try harder. You're not very good at it.
Says the one who's trying really hard to grind the low line of gruffness.
Author of: Hand Crank Generator, Screenshot Hotkey 2.0
Mod support languages: 日本語, Deutsch, English
My code in the post above is dedicated to the public domain under CC0.

Cadde
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Cadde » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:53 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:03 pm
Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:50 pm
I disagree : if Alt-Mode is statistically activated 95% of the time and deactivated (on purpose) 5% of the time, then default setting should have it activated, and allow people to deactivate it at will. Default setting should always be the overall more used (if the bias is significant).

I have no statistics, and I don't know if there are. My intuition says me that alt mode is overall massively more used than "no alt-mode". But I still might be wrong.
And this is why a game developer should completely ignore vague intuitions about made-up statistics from single players when it comes to setting game defaults.

Players just have to learn alt-mode is a thing, and turn it on. They go through that epiphany precisely once in the history of time. It's not exactly onerous.

I'm taking it as a sign of this game's maturity that people are dwelling on such total trivia now.
So you are right and everyone else is wrong, is that it?
Do you have statistics to back up your claim that the majority of Factorio players isn't playing with ALT-mode on?

Had it not been for me watching a few videos before i got Factorio, i would most likely not have found out about the ALT-Mode's existence until far into the future.
No, i don't read hints.
It's a good thing that ALT-Mode is now a button next to the quickbar as players are more likely to find it.

However, i am very much in favor of it being ON by default. It doesn't hurt playability to have it on. But it does hurt having it off for new players.

Cadde
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Cadde » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:57 pm

meganothing wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:26 pm
conn11 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:49 pm
So practically Vanilla should be inferior for better playability. But considering the development history, many of the great aspects of Vanilla were adapted from mods. IMO players shouldn’t be required to use mods to play an „adequate“ Vanilla.
Define inferior.

There is no absolute in fun. Bobs Mod might be hundred times more fun than vanilla to some veteran player who played vanilla to death. But other players (and especially most beginners) won't see any fun in that mod.

Mods are not better than vanilla, but there are so many of them that you can switch and always find something new. If you only had one mod available, you would get fed up with it too. In that sense everybody will either stop playing eventually or use mods to get some new experience.

PS: I have been playing Factorio regularily for the last 3 years and still haven't played a single mod
It took me about 3 hours playing Vanilla before i felt like it was SORELY lacking depth.
But i knew before i got the game that it supported mods and i knew there were in-depth mods out there. I wanted to try vanilla first just to see what the game was like and it was, quite frankly, awful. Still kinda is awful to be honest.

With mods however, i've taken it a bit too far in the other direction by running all of pyanodons mods. It's "too deep" now, which makes me feel like every little step i make before i crash my brain is just another step towards one other little step towards god knows what.
I still love it way more than vanilla though and i love that complexity. But it's still just a tiny bit too far. ;)

Cadde
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

Post by Cadde » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:00 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:41 pm
Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:16 pm
I totally agree on the fact my intuitions shouldn't be what drives Factorio's development. Hopefully, your own vague intuitions and arbitrary assumtions will be ignored the same. I'd hate a game designed with the "L2P, noob" philosophy you seem to profess.
Don't put words in my mouth. Try behaving like an actual moderator for once.

I expect this'll earn me another threatening PM.
Moderators are people, you would know this if you actually cared to think about what you were saying.

Post Reply

Return to “News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]