Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Regular reports on Factorio development.
Post Reply
Tontaube
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 7:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by Tontaube » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:06 pm

I played - and survived - the demo. While having 800+ hours under my belt, I managed to survive partly because the "objective to be fulfilled: produce lots of ammo".

IMO it would be helpful to put more stress on this objective, e.g. write "- you´re gonna need it!" after the objective. And also to have to place more than 2 turrets and later on 2 more. Make it 5 turrets and later 5 more - all having to be filled with 100 ammo.

If the player sees what he is dealing with, he will have time to produce more turrets and ammo, while the existing ones will fend off the biters.
Or you could insert an option mid-game "We see you are struggling with the amount of biters. Do you want to reduce pollution by half for this game? Select button: Yes or no". Even if it isn´t so, the newbie will get the feeling that the game (at least: during the tutorial mission) reacts to his choices. I remember having "Rise of Nations" asking me sth. similar during its tutorial - and I thought: "Wow". Even after all these years I still remember that design choice...

Oh, and one minor bug: See attached screenshot
Attachments
2019-08-04 17_50_02-Factorio 0.17.62.png
2019-08-04 17_50_02-Factorio 0.17.62.png (249.22 KiB) Viewed 774 times

Tontaube
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 7:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by Tontaube » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:15 pm

Three more things:
- the picture is to the left of the original lab
- It´s a dirty trick to have worms appear before cleaning out of the starting area. It nearly did me in
- it would give the player a reason - an understandable & valid, even if not entirely just reason - to remorseless kill the biters off and commit mass-species-cide if you scripted that at the very end compilatron would be killed of by biters. Like "Right or wrong - if these damn Indians hadn´t massacred my family, I´d never have gone after em". Even if would be a cruel thing to do. But it would A) explain why during freeplay there isn´t a claptrap and B) it would also provide an emotional rollercoaster which could bind players to the game. As if anyone who has played it that far would need another needle to become addicted...

factoriouzr
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:23 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by factoriouzr » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:04 pm

Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:24 pm
factoriouzr wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:45 pm
Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:32 pm
[...]
Yes and no. It's not like the new features have just been requested or promised. These were promised a year and a half ago. 0.17.0 was released 6 months ago. The game was stable to play a week or so after 0.17.0 was released. The Majour bugs were fixed lets say a month after release (likely less then that). Again, this is majour bugs, not every single bug. My point is the game has been stable and playable for at least 5 months and we have been waiting over a year before the release of 0.17.0 for 0.17.0 to be released with no new features for all that time. What many of us are saying is that updates should come more frequently in general. The game doesn't have to have all bugs squashed before new features are added. It should be a balance. First focus on critical game breaking bugs, then split your time between the remaining bugs and new features. This game gets updated so rarely with new features that were promised. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they are fixing the bugs as that's really important for a good game, all I'm saying is that it should be a constant balance and both should be worked on at the same time. The Friday facts for the last 6 months or so have been so disappointing. All back end work (again, this is fine as it needs to be done, but should also include new features as well).
That's kind of funny because despite I'm not a developper in my day job, I have the same exact issues : enough work for 2-3 people to tackle while being 1. And whenever I prioritize a subject at the expense of the others, I get blamed for not handling the other subjects first by the people who expected them.

So I really know how it feels, and I can tell you that in the end the more people insist on being taken care of first, the more I tend to push their case to the bottom of my todo list (unless I, in all conscience, I am convinced that their issue should be my priority).

That's why I think letting the devs know we long for the GUI updates is fine, but blaming them for not doing them already is useless, and mabe even counterproductive.
I know what you mean, but I wasn't blaming them. I said this many times in my post. The response also seems contradictory. They are only doing bug fixes but yet work on the new campaign. As I said, nothing I said was meant to offend anyone. I love the game still and I bought multiple copies even though I didn't have to, just to support the developers. However it's also very frustrating that it takes them so long to release updates with new content.

T-A-R
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 4:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by T-A-R » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:38 pm

I apologise if a am wrong, but im left surprised on Klonan's response.

I find it rather hard (titles, tags, official annotated roadmap) to search trough the fff's without having to read everything, but the last official mention about the library imrovements i could find was fff282.
https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-282

Or should I read fff-277 as already excluding it from "being in 0.17". Since 0.17's fff's it is all about bugs (en suddenly out of the blue remnants) Then more bugs and the campaign, and after that our memory should be sort of fresh.

Empathy is good, but frustration is easily assumed wrong. (I removed my frustrations here as well, basta.)
I can understand if the library will be moved again for good reasons (prais bug fixing, instead of postponing them, they need to be tackled once, so rather when most effective).

But i have been searching for these multiple mentions in the FFF's for an hour now, but I only found out that I only lost touch to what i loved, I clearly can't follow your reasoning anymore.

Or became the forum and FFF's alone just to slow to follow official development in the time where everybody gets distracted by reddit and discord? Those several times have not been in the FFF's (please correct me if I am wrong.)!?

meganothing
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by meganothing » Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:54 am

T-A-R wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:38 pm
But i have been searching for these multiple mentions in the FFF's for an hour now, but I only found out that I only lost touch to what i loved, I clearly can't follow your reasoning anymore.
I assume Klonan meant multiple mentions of their priority to fix bugs now

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4977
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by Koub » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:23 am

T-A-R wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:38 pm
[...]

I find it rather hard (titles, tags, official annotated roadmap) to search trough the fff's without having to read everything, but the last official mention about the library imrovements i could find was fff282.
https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-282

[...]

Or became the forum and FFF's alone just to slow to follow official development in the time where everybody gets distracted by reddit and discord? Those several times have not been in the FFF's (please correct me if I am wrong.)!?
Actually, the devs do communicate in all these medias, and also on this very forum. And I know that two things have been asked for repeatedly since 0.17.0, and were answered several times by the devs this answer :
1) GUI rework
2) fluid physics.

If I have time before I go to work, I'll try to add a few links.

[Edit] for example :
viewtopic.php?p=437520#p437520
viewtopic.php?p=448766#p448766
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

dee-
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 387
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:21 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by dee- » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:18 am

Somehow I think maybe it's better to just re-implement the tutorial scenario than to try to fix it piece by piece.
Sometimes a fresh start with increased knowledge and a fresh approach is better than trying to fix something skewed.

I think repairing and later upgrading a derelict base the player finds is a good idea.
It can show and teach him how to build a base layout, transport concepts like belts and inserters and gives the player a direct purpose and clear idea what to do how.
Then after having the base fixed and running make him expand on this, upgrade parts, bridge the base with logibots, enhance parts with beacons etc.
After that the player is fit for freeplay and all along he was able to imporove uponn something existing giving him guidance and ideas.

User avatar
Klonan
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 3748
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:09 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by Klonan » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:39 am

T-A-R wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:38 pm
But i have been searching for these multiple mentions in the FFF's for an hour now, but I only found out that I only lost touch to what i loved, I clearly can't follow your reasoning anymore.

Or became the forum and FFF's alone just to slow to follow official development in the time where everybody gets distracted by reddit and discord? Those several times have not been in the FFF's (please correct me if I am wrong.)!?
We have mentioned the plan to start working on the GUI after fixing bugs and having the first stable for a while:

FFF-282:
Since there are a lot of things we would like to do before we can call 0.17 good enough, we will simply push new things into the 0.17 releases as time goes on. Even if 0.17 becomes stable in a reasonable time, we would still push things on top of it. We can still make experimental/stable version numbers inside 0.17. Most of the things shouldn't be big enough to make the game generally unstable. I've heard countless times a proposal to make small frequent releases of what have we added, this will probably be reality after 0.17 for some time.
FFF-292:
Some people have been asking when we will release the new GUI and GFX updates that we promised before 0.17 release. The plan is that after the first 0.17 stable version, some of the team will be moved from fixing bugs to working on features. At the point where we have a meaningful amount of new content ready (A few GUIs, some new GFX, etc.), we will release it as a new experimental 0.17 version. We plan to give some explanation and notice about these 'mini-content releases' in a FFF before they are each released.
FFF-303:
Our plan is to have a number of short experimental phases after the first stable, where we will add new GUI's and such, which will add bugs and technical debt. After fixing the bugs in a 'small' experimental content release, we will then mark that as the 'new' 0.17 stable.

T-A-R
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 4:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by T-A-R » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:53 pm

Thanks a lot for sharing these forum links. I appreciate much you both took a moment to point out that my statements are wrong here. The mind seems selective in remembering here, my apologies.
I must have been confused by the official and unofficial (annotated) roadmaps, and this sentence in fff282.
other changes related to the blueprint library will follow soon after 0.17.0.
Well, I wish you all the best in fixing these bugs then.

factory33
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by factory33 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:21 pm

PacifyerGrey wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:33 pm
newllama wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:14 pm
In the old campaign, "A New Hope" level 2 the player discovers a large base that has been decimated by biters. I remember that this was the level that my imagination really kicked into high gear. I think that without that glimpse into the future I might not have had the curiosity to continue through to freeplay. I feel strongly that the current demo would benefit from something like this. It also gives you guys a chance to show off all those cool new remnant assets you created.

There is that weird furnace bunker in the northwest but it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense in the context of the level and there's no way to integrate it into your base in the valley.
I also support the idea of repairing partially broken base to make it function again. You can leave as many details as you please to hint the player on how the stuff works. Remembering the mission with semi-broken base with trains I was pretty damn hyped to continue stuff. The whole organization of that base made my imagination go through the roof of the scale you can actually build stuff!
I also would like to add my voice to this again. For me that mission was very helpfull back when I startet learning the game and I think it is a powerfull way to teach since the player gets the idea but still needs to build and fill gaps himselfe. Without this it would have taken me much longer to grasp the "large scale" aspect of the game. The tutorial should be exactly that: bring the player to a point where he can enjoy the game quicker than he would without tutorial. Kind of kick start the experience. Otherwise the player can just start a freeplay and figure stuff out by himselfe (Which some people prefere, but I like to get kickstarted).

Maybe the powerfull approach of "learning by repairing a base" can be used in a later part of the new campaign to showcase and teach some more complex concepts such as advanced oil (not offtopic here :P), trains, nuclear power or a "main bus"?

User avatar
Light
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 661
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by Light » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:49 pm

factory33 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:21 pm
PacifyerGrey wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:33 pm
newllama wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:14 pm
In the old campaign, "A New Hope" level 2 the player discovers a large base that has been decimated by biters. I remember that this was the level that my imagination really kicked into high gear. I think that without that glimpse into the future I might not have had the curiosity to continue through to freeplay. I feel strongly that the current demo would benefit from something like this. It also gives you guys a chance to show off all those cool new remnant assets you created.

There is that weird furnace bunker in the northwest but it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense in the context of the level and there's no way to integrate it into your base in the valley.
I also support the idea of repairing partially broken base to make it function again. You can leave as many details as you please to hint the player on how the stuff works. Remembering the mission with semi-broken base with trains I was pretty damn hyped to continue stuff. The whole organization of that base made my imagination go through the roof of the scale you can actually build stuff!
I also would like to add my voice to this again. For me that mission was very helpfull back when I startet learning the game and I think it is a powerfull way to teach since the player gets the idea but still needs to build and fill gaps himselfe. Without this it would have taken me much longer to grasp the "large scale" aspect of the game. The tutorial should be exactly that: bring the player to a point where he can enjoy the game quicker than he would without tutorial. Kind of kick start the experience. Otherwise the player can just start a freeplay and figure stuff out by himselfe (Which some people prefere, but I like to get kickstarted).

Maybe the powerfull approach of "learning by repairing a base" can be used in a later part of the new campaign to showcase and teach some more complex concepts such as advanced oil (not offtopic here :P), trains, nuclear power or a "main bus"?
I must agree with this as well. Restoring the abandoned base to its former glory was pretty awesome, it felt like I was able to fix things even when the situation gets rough. Finding the giant mines loading into trains helped to establish the scale of how much ore is needed to sustain a base of that size as well as showing how trains were loaded and offloaded.

Having to restore a base with visual aid of what was being done previously was considerably more helpful compared to just being told outright what to do. It left an impression despite being a few years ago since I last played the campaign.

That said, it also allows the art team to further their engineer design inspiration concept by finding a couple trashed yet workable buildings that look a bit different to what we create. That is probably my favourite thing this campaign provides, which is a bit of character development to show the engineers adaptability with what he has at his disposal and to come up with his own designed solution for the same function. It gives our 24/7 head turning engineer a bit of depth.

MEOWMI
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 12:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by MEOWMI » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:53 pm

I absolutely agree with many of the previous posters here, that the loss of the entire old campaign is quite sad.

It indeed teached you a lot of the mechanics that you might not think of, and really helps shape the atmosphere of the game. I would most certainly not have had as good of an experience starting out, if the old campaign hadn't been there at the time.

factoriouzr
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:23 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by factoriouzr » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:12 pm

T-A-R wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:53 pm
Thanks a lot for sharing these forum links. I appreciate much you both took a moment to point out that my statements are wrong here. The mind seems selective in remembering here, my apologies.
I must have been confused by the official and unofficial (annotated) roadmaps, and this sentence in fff282.
other changes related to the blueprint library will follow soon after 0.17.0.
Well, I wish you all the best in fixing these bugs then.
Soon after.... 6 months and counting lol :)

factoriouzr
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:23 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by factoriouzr » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:15 pm

A question about the campaign and compilatron.

I have seen posts that compilatron gets in the way of player building where they want. Since I have not played the campaign, is it not just implemented so it moves away when you get close kind of like companions in other games? They just try to get out of your way when you approach them in other games. If it's not implemented like this I wonder what the reasoning behind not doing this was.

warlordship
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 8:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by warlordship » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:29 am

factoriouzr wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:15 pm
A question about the campaign and compilatron.

I have seen posts that compilatron gets in the way of player building where they want. Since I have not played the campaign, is it not just implemented so it moves away when you get close kind of like companions in other games? They just try to get out of your way when you approach them in other games. If it's not implemented like this I wonder what the reasoning behind not doing this was.
*chases Compilotron all the way to a biter base so they munch on it*

Btw, I found out you CAN shoot compilotron. Doesn't seem to do any damage, so why he has eleventy billion health is strange.

meganothing
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by meganothing » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:08 pm

warlordship wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:29 am
*chases Compilotron all the way to a biter base so they munch on it*

Btw, I found out you CAN shoot compilotron. Doesn't seem to do any damage, so why he has eleventy billion health is strange.
"you die while compilatron stands there amidst frenzied aliens pounding on it for hours and hours"

It's just to make you feel inferior :D

gravityStar
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by gravityStar » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:38 pm

+1000 hours player; introduction scenario suggestions:
- have computron suggest looting the pieces of debris during the initial phase
- increase the time between computron's warning of incoming attack from the West until the actual attack (and abandonment of the phase 1 base). An extra 20 seconds should do it.

mm.lion
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:39 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by mm.lion » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:54 am

factory33 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:21 pm
PacifyerGrey wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:33 pm
newllama wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:14 pm
In the old campaign, "A New Hope" level 2 the player discovers a large base that has been decimated by biters. I remember that this was the level that my imagination really kicked into high gear. I think that without that glimpse into the future I might not have had the curiosity to continue through to freeplay. I feel strongly that the current demo would benefit from something like this. It also gives you guys a chance to show off all those cool new remnant assets you created.
I also support the idea of repairing partially broken base to make it function again. You can leave as many details as you please to hint the player on how the stuff works. Remembering the mission with semi-broken base with trains I was pretty damn hyped to continue stuff. The whole organization of that base made my imagination go through the roof of the scale you can actually build stuff!
I also would like to add my voice to this again.
I also want to support this. It was the best part of the previous compaign. That mission hit my imagination very hard. I still remember it, since exactly this part of the old compaign has made me love this game.

MicFac
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by MicFac » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:14 pm

I tried out the new Indtroduction scenario right after I had updated to 0.17 and I got completely destroyed by all of the biters. I couldn't even make it by loading autosaves to better prepare for the waves. After I read the spoiler warning in this Friday Facts, I decided to try out the Introduction again. This time I made it without any problems. I could hold off all biters with 3 gun turrets and a couple walls on each the west and east. This time it felt a little too easy, though I still had a lot of fun because I could build a decent factory without having to worry about it getting completely destroyed.

jodokus31
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #306 - Experimental Demo

Post by jodokus31 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:11 pm

mm.lion wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:54 am
factory33 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:21 pm
PacifyerGrey wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:33 pm
newllama wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:14 pm
In the old campaign, "A New Hope" level 2 the player discovers a large base that has been decimated by biters. I remember that this was the level that my imagination really kicked into high gear. I think that without that glimpse into the future I might not have had the curiosity to continue through to freeplay. I feel strongly that the current demo would benefit from something like this. It also gives you guys a chance to show off all those cool new remnant assets you created.
I also support the idea of repairing partially broken base to make it function again. You can leave as many details as you please to hint the player on how the stuff works. Remembering the mission with semi-broken base with trains I was pretty damn hyped to continue stuff. The whole organization of that base made my imagination go through the roof of the scale you can actually build stuff!
I also would like to add my voice to this again.
I also want to support this. It was the best part of the previous compaign. That mission hit my imagination very hard. I still remember it, since exactly this part of the old compaign has made me love this game.
+1. I saw this mission before on YT from a guy, who was very bad at it. The trains hooked me and I thought, I have to try this, although I played no game for years before. That was more than 2,5 years ago.

Post Reply

Return to “News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Adamo, Reika, Rhein