Antaios wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:06 am
netmand wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:01 pm
oh what a wonderful way to put that it changes your experience. I've read all comments to that effect. I'll acknowledge that figuring out multiple outputs on one building is rewarding, but it mystifies me that you guys need to preserve that particular experience so well that you'll argue for weeks about it. Can we not move past this? Why is it not ok to "move" it to Advanced oil processing?
Because it doesn't accomplish the goal. it messes with the freedom of technologies and progression the player has through the expansion phase (where they start exploring) that is green science, and it doesn't 'smooth out' the difficulty curve. Sure, it makes things easier, specifically regarding oil
for experienced players, that's somewhat smoother for us in a way. But it also removed some smoothing technology, now moved behind blue science, so it's more a wash.
This is what the curves for 'stuff the player has to deal with' regarding oil. If you're concerned about new players, you'll be concerned about this, throwing new stuff at them. (omitting coal liquefaction)
(the chart omitted the '0' in 0.17.60, the red line)
Neither of those is particularly smooth, but I think we can agree the second is way harsher.
Not to mention for reasons I explained in my very lengthy post, the complexities associated with basic oil processing are over exaggerated, so that blue curve should actually be lowered in the basic oil processing stage.
I agree with you, all this change did was push the problem from later into the game, removing flexibility for more experienced players.
Klonan wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:32 pm
Preserteo wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:24 pm
only the problem is delayed.
Thats what we wanted
Based on the feed back and length of this thread, like me, I do not believe that this is what most of the players wanted.
xfir01 wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:41 pm
mcdjfp wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:18 pm
when I read that post the thought that came into my head was that they don't really care at all about really fixing the problem
There's a bunch of problems that rears its head at about the same time:
There's a lot of things to deal with, so by making BOP trivial, that's one less thing to worry about and you can focus on something else. Later, when you get AOP, the same old complexity/deadlock problems come up, but now you've got fewer immediate concerns and better tools to handle it. The point of the delay is to turn a difficulty wall into two ramps.
xfir01, in listing all six items, you hit a bulls eye. This is the real issue, not the amount of stuff, but the player having to bounce around the different tasks in order to get past the chemical science hurdle.
I understand that the oil change in .60 is an attempt to simply the game, and it does so, but the cost is such a simplification that it removes flexibility. At the same time, it breaks all pre-60 maps requiring either mods or a time to fix. I would of preferred this to be released after a stable version would of been released, or between 0.16.51 and 0.17.00.
Long term, I think there will have to be adjustments how the oil recipes based on need, possibly even addressing the generation of the oil fields. The recipes, converting everything into petroleum, using 3 productivity-3 modules per refinery or chemical plant using fracking (excluding speed modules for simplicity):
BoP: 100 Crude = 30 Hv, 30 Lt, 40 Petrol fracked to 29.25 + 30 Lt and 40 Petrol fracked to 51.35 + 40 Petrol which ends up as 91.35 Petrol.
AoP: 100 Crude = 10 Hv, 45 Lt, 30 Petrol fracked to 9.75 + 45 Lt and 30 Petrol fracked to 47.45 + 40 Petrol which ends up as 87.45 Petrol.
BoP: 100 Crude = 45 Petrol
AoP: 25 Hv, 45 Lt, 55 Petrol fracked to 24.38 + 45 Lt and 55 Petrol fracked to 60.12 + 55 Petrol which ends up as 115.12 Petrol
Coal Liquafication remains the same in both pre and post 0.17.60 with 25 heavy oil needed to jump start the coal liquafication process:
CL: 90 - 25 Hv, 20 Lt, 10 Petrol, fracked to 63.375 + 20 Lt and 10 Petrol fracked to 72.28 Lt and 10 Petrol which ends up as 82.28 Petrol.
For fracking of Hv ==> Lt, I used the formula of 40 Hv in, 30 Lt out, multiplied by 1.3 (3 Productivity-3 modules)
For fracking of Lt ==> Petrol, I used the formula of 30 Lt in, 10 Petrol out, multiplied by 1.3 (3 Productivity-3 modules)
There is a massive jump in how much oil based products can be produced with advanced processing in post-60 between BoP and AoP. Also in post-60 CL is much less efficient compared to AoP, so unless the player is playing on a map with limited oil on the map I do not think it will be used as much or needs massive amounts of lube, in the megabase game when they are setting up a separate outposts to assemble electric engines.
Based on this, I think there will be downstream adjustments to the oil refining recipes or consumption of oil based products such as sulfur or plastic. I don't think those changes will be as map breaking at .60 was, in that mostly they will in an adjustment of how much is produced or how much is needed to assemble something.