Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

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5thHorseman
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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by 5thHorseman » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:25 pm

Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:34 am
A player accustomed to playing games like the ones mentioned will now find that yes, there is a new material, oil, to see what I do with it. But you don't have to do anything you haven't done so far!

I replace the ore extractor with the pumpjack, replace the conveyor belt with a pipe, and the oven with a refinery that gives me a product (gas). He has no emotion at all !!!
Here's where we have to differ on opinion. I think simply dealing with fluids is enough of a change. You do not. Others do not as well, and some have quit playing over it. Who knows how many quit playing over the way it was. I suspect if it wasn't for YouTube, I'd have been one of them. I also suspect Wube has better data on that than any of us.

Basically my view is that adding oil and petroleum (not to mention pipes, pumps, chemical plants, sulfur, acid, batteries, and the infrastructure around all that) adds a lot to the game, enough to entertain a new player long enough to get to Advanced Oil Processing and likely long after. Your view is that all that I mentioned is just like everything that came before. I don't see how we're going to agree on that.

I wish I had a window into a parallel Earth where Wube started oil this way and tried to change it to the way it used to be here. I wonder how many people would complain that they're dumbing it down because they're giving you oil "for free" without even having to research AOP.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Preserteo » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:47 pm

conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:51 am
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:34 am
5thHorseman wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 am
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:08 am
The problem is that what you call oil processing is nothing more than a graphics change, it's like a simple "iron processor". There is a simple extractor (pumpjack) that reaches a "assembler" through a pipe where a simple product comes out.
But that's the point. The product now comes through a pipe. It's the very first thing a new player does with a pipe since leaving the burner phase, when let's face it they didn't do much with pipes.

Also, it isn't iron. It's a brand new product from a brand new ore and it makes multiple new things that mix both fluids and solids to make both fluids and solids. Sure someone with hundreds (or thousands) of hours could pooh-pooh that but I bet a truly new player would be ecstatic. Instead of overwhelmed like they were (as I was) with the way it was originally.

Do I have trouble with it now? Of course not. I didn't like it still, but I could do it. this past time though I actually enjoyed it.

I don't know if my personal fun counts for people saying it robs the fun from oil processing, but it sure does count for me.
Let's see if I can explain myself. I always talk about feelings, there are other people who talk about how they could have done giving ideas, I do it for what the player moves, feelings. I don't know if I will understand what I mean by using the Google translator but it is the only option I have at hand to be able to express myself in a language that is not mine.

The player who is going to play Factorio is not a player who only plays Fortnite and similar games (there will always be exceptions, as in everything). He is a player who likes strategy, economic or war games, or both.

In Factorio we have very differentiated elements, minerals such as iron, copper, stone, coal, uranium and fluids such as water and oil.

The minerals must be processed in furnaces to obtain products (iron, steel, copper, stone), or not processed to take advantage of them in a natural way (coal, stone), or with chemicals for their extraction (uranium).

Fluids are processed in a refinery (oil) or not processed like water.

That is what a player is and when he takes a few hours his brain assimilates.

In the furnaces some materials are processed and in the other refineries.

A player accustomed to playing games like the ones mentioned will now find that yes, there is a new material, oil, to see what I do with it. But you don't have to do anything you haven't done so far!

I replace the ore extractor with the pumpjack, replace the conveyor belt with a pipe, and the oven with a refinery that gives me a product (gas). He has no emotion at all !!!

A new player is not looking at the technology tree continuously because he does not know it, he is not thinking about the next recipes because he ignores them. Unlike!!! You will think that the whole game is the same, without any grace wasting hours to meet again with other material in which the graphics will change and will be the same!

A player of this type of games looks for challenges that push him forward, not repetitions of the same actions.

A new player was suddenly with oil and had three liquids to interact with ... this is not what he had seen so far! A new challenge!!! Let's see how you can solve this!

And it was difficult for you to find oil, because it was a complicated challenge, but if you realize that, it made you move on with the game. If after 10 hours of play you find an element, new yes, with which you have to repeat again what was done during the previous ten hours you get bored. Sensations.

I hope I have made myself understand a little better, sorry for English.
To answer to some of your arguments:

A player likely might look at the tech tree, firstly by seeing some yet to researchable techs in the actual tree or the list. Secondly by wondering how to get those cool looking bots (to know about them beforehand by youtube or some other means dosen‘t seem to far fetched) and realising the need for some other oil products.
A another approach could be reserved output boxes in newBOP.

Well, you agree with me. If a new player before playing has been able to enter communities and watch videos on YouTube, he will have no problem managing the three fluids in the refinery, none at all.

But according to the developers the change is to make the development of a new player easier, and it can be done. A good tutorial and some changes in the technological tree and in the recipes and it is achieved. But if you modify the treatment of the game's raw materials, you spoil the Factorio base and its identity.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Unclebod » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:48 pm

5thHorseman wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:25 pm


I wish I had a window into a parallel Earth where Wube started oil this way and tried to change it to the way it used to be here. I wonder how many people would complain that they're dumbing it down because they're giving you oil "for free" without even having to research AOP.
Call me when you find that window!


(The rest is not to 5thHorseman, but to all in this thread....)


Really, most (if not all) people having ideas in this (and other) threads seems to have 100+ hour in the game and already several oil processing setups behind them.
Can any of us really remember what we felt about oil setup the very first time. Can we then understand how we had reacted if the new system had been the first oil setup we did?
I. doubt. that.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Serenity » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:14 pm

I watched YouTube videos - which is what got me interested in the game - so I knew what to do.

Where I failed was not realizing how fast oil wells depleted back then. I produced some solid fuel for my power plant and they were tapped out in no timeI just produced SF because you could do it, but what I mainly needed was plastic.
But crude resources have been rebalanced since then. Maybe it too much in the other direction, but I certainly don't miss how much more important speed beaconed oil wells were then. You still need to do it, but nowhere near as soon

I didn't have issues with oil backing up though. Storage tanks always worked for me

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Adamo » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:15 pm

Unclebod wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:48 pm
Can any of us really remember what we felt about oil setup the very first time. Can we then understand how we had reacted if the new system had been the first oil setup we did?
I. doubt. that.
Maybe you have a terrible memory. :) But in all seriousness: many of us have also taken time to sit with our friends and explain how to play the game, seen them struggle with oil, and developed techniques to teach people how to learn it quickly.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by conn11 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:15 pm

Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:47 pm
conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:51 am
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:34 am
5thHorseman wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 am
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:08 am
To answer to some of your arguments:

A player likely might look at the tech tree, firstly by seeing some yet to researchable techs in the actual tree or the list. Secondly by wondering how to get those cool looking bots (to know about them beforehand by youtube or some other means dosen‘t seem to far fetched) and realising the need for some other oil products.
A another approach could be reserved output boxes in newBOP.

Well, you agree with me. If a new player before playing has been able to enter communities and watch videos on YouTube, he will have no problem managing the three fluids in the refinery, none at all.

But according to the developers the change is to make the development of a new player easier, and it can be done. A good tutorial and some changes in the technological tree and in the recipes and it is achieved. But if you modify the treatment of the game's raw materials, you spoil the Factorio base and its identity.
I was referring to youtube and other media more on the notion of the new player seeing con bots and then wonder in game how to acquire them and learning about some other oil products.
As for your conclusion: as likely most more experienced player probably think about newBOP as simplification or more drastically „dumbing down“, it makes actually sense from a balancing standpoint and with more scares HO could potentially make CL more relevant. I see the matter more like 5thHorseman. But in the end by giving newBOP some time we will see if it‘s any good. Compromises like adding oldBOP as some kind of intermediate oil reprice back in game, are theoretical speaking not really locked away.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by xfir01 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:27 pm

Unclebod wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:48 pm
Can any of us really remember what we felt about oil setup the very first time. Can we then understand how we had reacted if the new system had been the first oil setup we did?
I. doubt. that.
This is why I'm in the "don't care" camp. My first oil set up was 3 years and 1700 hours ago. I don't remember if it was hard, easy, confusing, difficult, deadlock prone, or whatever. There's no challenge to it for me now even in 0.17.59: I put down some tanks, get blue science, rush a couple worker robot speeds, maybe get a couple other techs that seem prudent, get AOP and add cracking with circuits and forget about it. I've got a blueprint for it.

Now they're making BOP simpler for people that aren't me while leaving AOP mostly alone. And people are freaking out. I don't get it. They claim "this trivializes BOP, removes all the puzzle and challenge!" while others are saying "This doesn't make oil processing simpler, just pushes the difficulty curve later!". Which is it? A pointless change that does nothing or completely trivializes it?

I think Antaios is right, it just moves the difficulty curve back, and as Koub clarifies, that was the @#$@ing point!

They changed BOP to make it simple for new people. I don't care. It's a solved problem for me. If you're here reading this, it's probably already solved problem for you, too, and this change isn't directed at you. It's directed at the people who aren't here because they gave up once they hit the oil/blue science wall.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Preserteo » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:51 pm

5thHorseman wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:25 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:34 am
A player accustomed to playing games like the ones mentioned will now find that yes, there is a new material, oil, to see what I do with it. But you don't have to do anything you haven't done so far!

I replace the ore extractor with the pumpjack, replace the conveyor belt with a pipe, and the oven with a refinery that gives me a product (gas). He has no emotion at all !!!
Here's where we have to differ on opinion. I think simply dealing with fluids is enough of a change. You do not. Others do not as well, and some have quit playing over it. Who knows how many quit playing over the way it was. I suspect if it wasn't for YouTube, I'd have been one of them. I also suspect Wube has better data on that than any of us.

Basically my view is that adding oil and petroleum (not to mention pipes, pumps, chemical plants, sulfur, acid, batteries, and the infrastructure around all that) adds a lot to the game, enough to entertain a new player long enough to get to Advanced Oil Processing and likely long after. Your view is that all that I mentioned is just like everything that came before. I don't see how we're going to agree on that.

I wish I had a window into a parallel Earth where Wube started oil this way and tried to change it to the way it used to be here. I wonder how many people would complain that they're dumbing it down because they're giving you oil "for free" without even having to research AOP.
I understand your argument.

But in the same way how many players do we stop playing? I know a few. In fact I found out about one of them.

Adding oil is great, but if you only get a change in the graphics and the same interaction is repetitive and boring.

You are not realizing that to get to oil there are already several hours in the game, if you play 10 hours and there are no new challenges you get bored.

You see the oil and you repeat yourself, again to do the same. You look at the tree and see the one after the uranium arrives, and your first thought is that the graphics will be changed, you will put it in another machine with a new aesthetic and that's it, again the same. Sensations

The reality so far was that you got used to the game at the beginning with red and green science, it was the challenge of the beginning and suddenly the oil came a great challenge, you looked at the tree and thought then the uranium arrives, so I will be surprised again this game?
Sensations

[Moderated by Koub] Please be respectful

If you are a strategy game player, there are no challenges (or you don't perceive them), and for those of us who usually play, we don't want the first 20 hours of the game, they are very boring, so I don't start.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by crambaza » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:52 pm

I think all this talk has taken us away from what really matters, so I'm here to refresh it.

I don't care about dumbing down oil, or dumb-delaying it, because Advanced Oil is the same.

I care that they keep saying "there's options now". No, there are no options.

I used to be able to focus construction bots, then Blue science if I wanted. I could also do it the other way, and do Blue science, then bots.

Now I can't. I have to do blue Science, then Advanced Oil (which I have to rush now, that I never had to rush before), then I get construction bots.

Pushing back construction bots is "not fun" for every play through of the game now, and the reason is because someone with 5-50 hours of gameplay is having trouble setting up a couple pipes of oil.

I don't care how you fix it. Maybe make it so Basic Oil has a secret top pipe, that spits out lubrication. If there's not pipe, it won't stop production, it's just burn it off like everything else, but if you do plug in the secret pipe, then lubricant comes out.

I'll wait for the fix.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Preserteo » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:55 pm

conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:15 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:47 pm
conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:51 am
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:34 am
5thHorseman wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 am

To answer to some of your arguments:

A player likely might look at the tech tree, firstly by seeing some yet to researchable techs in the actual tree or the list. Secondly by wondering how to get those cool looking bots (to know about them beforehand by youtube or some other means dosen‘t seem to far fetched) and realising the need for some other oil products.
A another approach could be reserved output boxes in newBOP.

Well, you agree with me. If a new player before playing has been able to enter communities and watch videos on YouTube, he will have no problem managing the three fluids in the refinery, none at all.

But according to the developers the change is to make the development of a new player easier, and it can be done. A good tutorial and some changes in the technological tree and in the recipes and it is achieved. But if you modify the treatment of the game's raw materials, you spoil the Factorio base and its identity.
I was referring to youtube and other media more on the notion of the new player seeing con bots and then wonder in game how to acquire them and learning about some other oil products.
As for your conclusion: as likely most more experienced player probably think about newBOP as simplification or more drastically „dumbing down“, it makes actually sense from a balancing standpoint and with more scares HO could potentially make CL more relevant. I see the matter more like 5thHorseman. But in the end by giving newBOP some time we will see if it‘s any good. Compromises like adding oldBOP as some kind of intermediate oil reprice back in game, are theoretical speaking not really locked away.
Sure, but you are not talking about the new players that is what it is done for. A new player after many hours still does not find challenges until the AO, it will take more than 15 hours of boring game and you will find what is avoided that you are 5 hours before, it is absurd.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Preserteo » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:01 pm

xfir01 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:27 pm
Unclebod wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:48 pm
Can any of us really remember what we felt about oil setup the very first time. Can we then understand how we had reacted if the new system had been the first oil setup we did?
I. doubt. that.
This is why I'm in the "don't care" camp. My first oil set up was 3 years and 1700 hours ago. I don't remember if it was hard, easy, confusing, difficult, deadlock prone, or whatever. There's no challenge to it for me now even in 0.17.59: I put down some tanks, get blue science, rush a couple worker robot speeds, maybe get a couple other techs that seem prudent, get AOP and add cracking with circuits and forget about it. I've got a blueprint for it.

Now they're making BOP simpler for people that aren't me while leaving AOP mostly alone. And people are freaking out. I don't get it. They claim "this trivializes BOP, removes all the puzzle and challenge!" while others are saying "This doesn't make oil processing simpler, just pushes the difficulty curve later!". Which is it? A pointless change that does nothing or completely trivializes it?

I think Antaios is right, it just moves the difficulty curve back, and as Koub clarifies, that was the @#$@ing point!

They changed BOP to make it simple for new people. I don't care. It's a solved problem for me. If you're here reading this, it's probably already solved problem for you, too, and this change isn't directed at you. It's directed at the people who aren't here because they gave up once they hit the oil/blue science wall.
But it is not easier for new people, we always forget the same, Factorio does not play in an hour.

There are many hours to move forward and if there are no challenges people get bored and stop playing.

That wall that was once found after 10 hours will be found when they take 15, nothing has been solved, time has been wasted !!!!!

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by conn11 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:12 pm

Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:55 pm
conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:15 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:47 pm
conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:51 am
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:34 am
Sure, but you are not talking about the new players that is what it is done for. A new player after many hours still does not find challenges until the AO, it will take more than 15 hours of boring game and you will find what is avoided that you are 5 hours before, it is absurd.
And this is of course subjective. A new player might find a variation of the assembler theme with BOP interesting. And get the challenge of AOP later. It’s more the veterans who naturally have now a much simpler transition from early to mid game.
Potential players were quitting or at least having trouble either because of oldBOP beeing complicated to get smoothly running and/or the overall requirements of blue science.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by FuryoftheStars » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:19 pm

5thHorseman wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:25 pm
I wish I had a window into a parallel Earth where Wube started oil this way and tried to change it to the way it used to be here. I wonder how many people would complain that they're dumbing it down because they're giving you oil "for free" without even having to research AOP.
I would have welcomed the change seems it was being made closer to how it works in reality. I certainly wouldn't be seeing it as being given oil for free, but rather "oh, there are the missing bits!" This is assuming I would have bought the game, anyway, seems this (in addition to other things that I already have issues with) would've been enough to put me on the fence about it.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Preserteo » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:24 pm

conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:12 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:55 pm
conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:15 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:47 pm
conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:51 am

Sure, but you are not talking about the new players that is what it is done for. A new player after many hours still does not find challenges until the AO, it will take more than 15 hours of boring game and you will find what is avoided that you are 5 hours before, it is absurd.
And this is of course subjective. A new player might find a variation of the assembler theme with BOP interesting. And get the challenge of AOP later. It’s more the veterans who naturally have now a much simpler transition from early to mid game.
Potential players were quitting or at least having trouble either because of oldBOP beeing complicated to get smoothly running and/or the overall requirements of blue science.
A new player, the only variation he will find with BOP is graphics, he will not find anything more different.

And potential players who didn't go through the fault of AOP before will encounter the same problem shortly after.

Still nothing is solved, only the problem is delayed.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Klonan » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:32 pm

Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:24 pm
only the problem is delayed.
Thats what we wanted

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by conn11 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:34 pm

Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:24 pm
conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:12 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:55 pm
conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:15 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:47 pm
Sure, but you are not talking about the new players that is what it is done for. A new player after many hours still does not find challenges until the AO, it will take more than 15 hours of boring game and you will find what is avoided that you are 5 hours before, it is absurd.
And this is of course subjective. A new player might find a variation of the assembler theme with BOP interesting. And get the challenge of AOP later. It’s more the veterans who naturally have now a much simpler transition from early to mid game.
Potential players were quitting or at least having trouble either because of oldBOP beeing complicated to get smoothly running and/or the overall requirements of blue science.
A new player, the only variation he will find with BOP is graphics, he will not find anything more different.

And potential players who didn't go through the fault of AOP before will encounter the same problem shortly after.

Still nothing is solved, only the problem is delayed.
Until PG is used for Plastic or other products and liquids and belted items have to be balanced against each other. Sure but delaying the problem and separating it from blue science is the entire theory behind newBOP.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by mcdjfp » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:08 pm

Klonan wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:32 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:24 pm
only the problem is delayed.
Thats what we wanted
I am sure that is not what you meant to say. It appears to imply that the goal of the change was to lure players later in the game before giving up.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by xfir01 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:15 pm

mcdjfp wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:08 pm
Klonan wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:32 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:24 pm
only the problem is delayed.
Thats what we wanted
I am sure that is not what you meant to say. It appears to imply that the goal of the change was to lure players later in the game before giving up.
*bangs head on desk repeatedly*

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by DanGio » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:16 pm

mcdjfp wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:08 pm
Klonan wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:32 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:24 pm
only the problem is delayed.
Thats what we wanted
I am sure that is not what you meant to say. It appears to imply that the goal of the change was to lure players later in the game before giving up.
As far as I remember, devs have been pretty consistent since FFF 304 saying that they wanted to delay the 3 output problem to the point where you have the tools to solve it, namely cracking. We can and have argued about if this is relevant or not, but this has been stated since the beginning.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by crambaza » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:16 pm

DanGio wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:16 pm
mcdjfp wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:08 pm
Klonan wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:32 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:24 pm
only the problem is delayed.
Thats what we wanted
I am sure that is not what you meant to say. It appears to imply that the goal of the change was to lure players later in the game before giving up.
As far as I remember, devs have been pretty consistent since FFF 304 saying that they wanted to delay the 3 output problem to the point where you have the tools to solve it, namely cracking. We can and have argued about if this is relevant or not, but this has been stated since the beginning.
The tools were already there. Solid Fuel.

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