Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Regular reports on Factorio development.
User avatar
BlueTemplar
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by BlueTemplar » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:49 pm

Just one word : Plastics !

Sulfur to Plastics is going to be hard to explain though, Factorio not having an in-game encyclopedia...

----
Tricorius wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:24 am
[...]
I build a basic one that just pumps out petroleum. All of my petroleum comes from this early refinery and I just give it more and more oil and burn through the inefficiencies (oil is plentiful so with enough oil—a couple speed moduled oil fields and production moduled basic oil—refineries provide plenty for a decent pre-megabase build...the inefficiency of the basic oil recipe really doesn’t matter when you flood it with an essentially-unlimited resource). In fact, I used to ship crude by rail in my old games, now I refine on site and ship petroleum by rail. (I didn’t check the math, but I believe this means I transport 40% less fluid by letting the refineries void or compress or whatever they do to the unusable portion of the crude.)

The second one (after unlocking advanced oil—which is now necessary to “beeline” if you want to continue expanding your science, let alone construction bots) simply handles everything else and only functions when it needs to. (I don’t even crack down to petroleum anymore.)
[...]
I got to upgrading my Refinery in my DWM game, and so updated to 0.17.60 in the process :
Image
(sorry, they're a bit small...)
Image

kbk
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by kbk » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:08 am

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:49 pm
Sulfur to Plastics is going to be hard to explain though, Factorio not having an in-game encyclopedia...
AFAIK while sulfur is the main ingredient here it is ridiculously hard to polymerize so vinyls are used as a polymerization agent in this technology. Here's a video on the process where 65% pure sulfur and 35% vinyl are mixed. So, the Factorio recipe for this could look like:
2 Sulfur + 1 Plastic = 3 Plastic
OR
3 Sulfur + 2 Plastic = 5 Plastic

Definitely, a decent sulfur sink indeed.

Zaka wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:16 pm
[...]

Suggestions:

Basic Refining with 3 recipes:

Code: Select all

Oil Fraction	Unique		SolidFuel	Sulfer
Heavy Oil	Lubricant	0		10 to 1
Light Oil	RocketFuel	10 to 1		20 to 1
Pet Gas		Plastic		20 to 1		0
[...]
Excuse me but I'm pretty much tempted to fix some parts of your vision that still make little sense to me. First, some info.

Real world Solid fuel is made from stripping carbon from heavier types of hydrocarbons through the process of coking. Like any other thermal cracking Coking is high-temperature splitting of heaviest residue oils which produces some carbon coke and a variety of other oil products. If we apply today's Factorio mechanics to IRL coking, its recipe would look like this:
HO + Water/Steam in > some HO, some LO, some PG and a unit of SF out.
Note that neither LO nor PG counterpart to this process exists IRL.

Sulfur is a bit more complex product. It's made with HDS process from oil gases, light oils and even disulphide oil from Merox units in hot hydrogen-rich high-pressure atmosphere. Resulting hydrogen sulphide is then burned in oxygen via the Claus process yielding pure sulfur and steam. Hydrogen for HDS is obtained from natural gas or oil gases at Steam reforming unit, where methane reacts with hot steam at high temperature. Since we have neither H2S nor pure H2 in Factorio, its adaptation of the whole cycle might take form in these recipes:
PG + Water/Steam in > Sulfur (+ maybe Steam) out
PG in > Sulfur (+ maybe Steam) out
Funny how the first recipe is similar to what Factorio has in stock at the moment. Regarding LO I guess it must be cracked prior to be used in the first recipe (otherwise someone has to introduce something with 3 fluidbox inputs). However, the second one – although I disapprove of such – allows direct LO input:
LO + less PG in > Sulfur (+ maybe Steam) out.

I see that in your proposal SF and Sulfur are used to sink multiple oil fractions. So, given that and all the above, I suggest swapping Sulfur and SF columns in your proposal and tweaking Sulfur yield to make PG its best source. Result should look like this:

Code: Select all

Oil Fraction	Unique		Sulfur		Solid fuel	
Heavy Oil	Lubricant	0		10 to 1		
Light Oil	Rocket fuel	20 to 1		20 to 1		
Pet Gas		Plastic		10 to 1		0		
Now to compensate for what I have just taken out I see 3 possible options:
1) leave it as is and consider moving LO to be availavle only in AOP era, as it ended up after 0.17.60
2) devise a new unique subproduct for LO and decide whether it (and LO) should be available before AOP
3) like you did previosly, devise a new subpoduct that is best made from LO, similar to solid fuel as it is now, and decide whether it (and LO) should be available before AOP.
One could also consider propping ineffective recipes' ratios up to, say, 30 to 1, at the cost of recipe time. I also have some ideas for that new product but will now stop getting carried away with suggesting things and see what you and others think :lol:

mcdjfp
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 12:42 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by mcdjfp » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:01 pm

Sigh, no response in either thread for about a week. In the end it doesn't matter much because the trend is still there. Factorio feels like it is shifting from an automation game with just enough tower defense to keep the player honest, to something that feels much more like a tower defense game. I used to really trust the developers (and I was looking forward to your next project/expansion), and I am still impressed by the optimizations, but the trust is gone. Too many things have been declared not used, only for it to be rapidly pointed out that they were. It now sounds like an excuse as opposed to a legitimate explanation. This latest round just makes things worse. The changes simply were not well though out and felt carelessly thrown together. Then we are told that one of the problems is having to race to advanced oil processing. The solution, among other things, was to put EVEN MORE STUFF behind advanced oil processing MAKING THE NEED TO RUSH EVEN WORSE.

If you want to convince someone that you are lying to them, this kind of we need to fix this problem by making it worse argument is a great way to do it.

I could go on, and I have, but I want to poke one more hole in your arguments. You have repeatedly defended your actions by claiming that advanced oil processing is now required. But that has nothing to do with it. What was required was having to deal with the three interlocked fluids. That was REQUIRED WITH BASIC OIL PROCESSING before 17.60. Instead your changes actually make it easier to SKIP the problem by limiting it to lubricant and solid fuel. This makes it MUCH, MUCH EASIER (assuming your goal is to launch a rocket and win) to completely bypass the issue by storing the excess. REMEMBER, puzzle free petroleum gas is always available.

In every game for me the roughest period comes as the biter attacks ramp up. I will hit a period where the majority of my time is running from one repair job to the other. This is in my mind the problem of the midgame. A problem that HAS BEEN MADE WORSE. Maybe I am playing wrong, but the only long term solution (there are a few temporary improvements) is construction bots (they allow for the automation of repair/rebuilding). And they have been pushed further back making the situation worse.

To end, yes, I feel betrayed. This, actually fairly lengthy, chain of events has pushed me into concluding that you care more about getting new sales than serving your current customers. And yes, this will affect my decisions in the future both for you, and other companies as well.

It took me years before I bought Skyrim (meaning that all of the DLC was bundled in as well for less than the original game) because one of the lead developers lied, claiming that they added a feature to replace one that they removed, except that the new feature was nearly identical to one that was in Oblivion.

Sigh... Can't trust big companies, can't trust small companies.

el_penny
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by el_penny » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:46 pm

mcdjfp wrote:In every game for me the roughest period comes as the biter attacks ramp up. I will hit a period where the majority of my time is running from one repair job to the other. This is in my mind the problem of the midgame. A problem that HAS BEEN MADE WORSE.
Well, if you don't like this problem you can tune it or turn off, like almost anything map related in this game. Although I recognize that for someone discussion about things that belong to changeable 'settings' or are perfectly modable is valid I do not understand it. If players are given power to change setting X then default value of setting X should be mainly concern for game designers and bi teams as in "what is the best for game success'. My personal example is every time i buy new RTS game I start AI match on easy and try to stomp. I do continue my way up in difficulty settings to see where is sweet spot between having fun and having to think. I do encourage you to think about it that way.

crambaza
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by crambaza » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:47 pm

I did some Factorio over the weekend. Reached the point of Construction bot delay, where I had to do blue science first, so I could then rush advanced oil, to get construction bots.

I realized just how… bad, dumb, pointless, whatever the new blue science recipe is. I used to be against the oil changes solely because it delayed construction bots.

Now, I also hate the oil change because it feels dumb putting sulfur on a belt for a science recipe. Plus, for 1 Blue Science per second, the 'complicated' puzzle is 16 Blue assemblers to 1/4 of a chemical plant making sulfur. Which of course means that it isn't a puzzle at all because if you make sulfur, however much you have made, it is enough.

At least with solid fuel as a recipe ingredient I learned that solid fuel was easy, and it replaced coal as the fuel to burn, so that coal could now be used for plastic only, and not power.

The way it is now is that I learn that I'm always going to have too much sulfur, because it's brain dead easy to make, and a silly addition to a science recipe.

Is the silly experiment over yet?

TRauMa
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by TRauMa » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:00 am

mcdjfp wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:01 pm
Sigh, no response in either thread for about a week. [...]

This, actually fairly lengthy, chain of events has pushed me into concluding that you care more about getting new sales than serving your current customers.
You have 31 Posts in this thread, and you seem to really care. But I have a hard time understanding what you are talking about. Factorio is shifting towards a Tower Defense? Developers are lying to you? They don't care about their long time players? O.o
I mean, I'm meh about the Basic Oil change, and I dislike shifting construction robotics back. But the sky isn't exactly falling here, neither feel I lied to. People can have different perspectives, you know, and what may be unquestionable, objective truths about how the changes affect the game to you can be very different when seen through the lens of someone who designed it.
mcdjfp wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:01 pm
Sigh... Can't trust big companies, can't trust small companies.
:D I mean, you are not supposed to marry them. Whatever game they do next, maybe just think about the good times you had with factorio, back when it wasn't completely unplayable because of the oil changes and the (temporary) removal of the non-destructive rail planner mode etc., to find some peace, and evaluate their next game based on what it is when it's done, and stay away from alphas and betas. That way, they won't sneak changes in you dislike, and you get to be the customer they care about more.

jodokus31
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 531
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by jodokus31 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:59 am

crambaza wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:47 pm
I did some Factorio over the weekend. Reached the point of Construction bot delay, where I had to do blue science first, so I could then rush advanced oil, to get construction bots.

I realized just how… bad, dumb, pointless, whatever the new blue science recipe is. I used to be against the oil changes solely because it delayed construction bots.

Now, I also hate the oil change because it feels dumb putting sulfur on a belt for a science recipe. Plus, for 1 Blue Science per second, the 'complicated' puzzle is 16 Blue assemblers to 1/4 of a chemical plant making sulfur. Which of course means that it isn't a puzzle at all because if you make sulfur, however much you have made, it is enough.

At least with solid fuel as a recipe ingredient I learned that solid fuel was easy, and it replaced coal as the fuel to burn, so that coal could now be used for plastic only, and not power.

The way it is now is that I learn that I'm always going to have too much sulfur, because it's brain dead easy to make, and a silly addition to a science recipe.

Is the silly experiment over yet?
While they evaluating the oil change, one challenge you can beat is to get con bots ASAP. This is not easy and leaves you in a state with AOP challenge. If you still can't trick yourself to proceed, you can try to just use the PreOil mod. Or some of the other proposal mods. Luckily modding provides challenges for almost everyone's taste.
I know that "modding should not be the answer to a bad design"-argument. IMO vanilla is just a certain flavour, which does not trigger everyone. I learned the beauty of vanilla after I played AB and a ton of QoL-mods and I regularly play it again.

spyke252
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:33 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by spyke252 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:53 am

Registered an account just to voice support for basic to only give light oil and cracking to petrogas, and reverting to solid fuel for chem science. IMO it completely fixes the problems and doesn't raise new problems, unlike the current solution.

foamy
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:14 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by foamy » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:13 pm

spyke252 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:53 am
Registered an account just to voice support for basic to only give light oil and cracking to petrogas, and reverting to solid fuel for chem science. IMO it completely fixes the problems and doesn't raise new problems, unlike the current solution.
That's better than now, and than .16s, but it's still weird as hell that lubricant is the highest-tech oil product. You can't put advanced circuits behind advanced oil processing without significant recipe changes elsewhere, though.

I'd sort of like to see chemical science require a fluid input to the assemblers. It'd make sense as the first place to encounter that possibility.

Post Reply

Return to “News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aliquid Novi, Yxen