Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Regular reports on Factorio development.
icarus86
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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by icarus86 »

Hello,

I've been constantly reading the forums and the FFFs for years now.
IMHO, I'm not in the "megabase-builder"-category, but nor am I a novice. I've done most of the achievements in Factorio (all except for 3 or maybe 4) and I have no issues with building a 60-120 SPM base.
I didn't have any issues with oil at any point in time. The only real "spike" I found was with regards to the time needed to build the rocket parts and the satellite, but not the complexity. I bought and I enjoy Factorio for its complexity. If I need yet another "mainstream" game, I think that one has plenty of options nowadays.

Therefore, I welcome changes which rather make the game a bit more complex and more elegant.
Here are the forum posts with a BIG +1 :
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=73684&start=760#p448148 --> good analysis, facts, elegant solution
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=73684&start=760#p447955 --> I would LOVE to see drones on the ground before researching and building the flying ones! THIS is what Factorio really is about!

@WUBE: you have a dedicated player base and forum community which loves your game, your attitude and your continuous dedication.
AFAIK there are few games where players spent so many playtime hours on average. This is a clear indication that they know what they're saying when they make suggestions. Please, DO NOT change your attitude. Continue to listen and improve upon the advice received from the community. Please, DON'T be arrogant!
Continue to keep up the core spirit of Factorio. Add a new product. Add a new recipe. Add a new robot/drone/building.

Thank you.
P.S. Sorry for any bad grammar or "bad writing". English is not my mother tongue.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by RocketManChronicles »

mcdjfp wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:44 pm
1. Call me elitist if you want because I enjoyed things the way they were. I am no more elitist than someone demanding a change (such as removing what I enjoyed) so that they will enjoy the game more.
2. I have been reminded that this is not just about 1 change, but a series of changes (pickaxe, mining hardness, mining power, the careless stripping of the rail planners avoid mode (finally returned but still contributes to the impression), assembly machine ingredient limits) that combined give an ever stronger impression that the direction of the game is moving from what I enjoyed, and is trying to appeal to a different set of players. People like different things, it is impossible to make a game that appeals to everyone.
This right here. It is the pattern that has me concerned. All of the things that made this game enticing, was the complexity it provided. Vanilla Factorio is becoming a shell of its former self. Too many things are being simplified. The Assembly Machine ingredient limit change was another big one I hate. I loved that there was a gate just to get Green Science automated, you HAD to semi-automate some packs to unlock Assembling Machine 2 in order to fully automate the Inserter. It was a way to have to do something very inefficiently in order to unlock a better process. The same applies to Basic Oil Processing, something that is inefficient to unlock more efficient means later. These gates were good checkpoints to show that later technology opened doors to do things better. The problem is, the BOP change did nothing, as now it forces you to rush AOP to get the other oils, exactly what you were trying to prevent. AOP was the first thing I researched after automating Blue Science, just so I could have Light and Heavy Oil. Such a shame that I had to take that path.

It is not just the Oil Change that has me put off a bit, it is the pattern of changes over the past year that are making me refer to "Vanilla Factorio" now as "Bland Factorio." The mechanics that were in place: mining hardness, mining power, the pickaxe, ingredient limits, etc were all puzzles and gates that made the game what it was and provided potential to add more interesting gameplay if the modded community wanted to use them. For the last several changes, this game is becoming less of a beacon for me; too many things have been dumb-down to the least common denominator, and I do not plan to play Bland Factorio anymore after trying a run with these new changes. Too many things are too easy now. I will stick with mods, since some I play with revert some of these changes (thanks Bob).

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Preserteo »

I have also uninstalled the game after more than 2500 hours and playing almost every day. The shot has been that my 11-year-old daughter has literally told me: "Now that is super easy," and now prefers to play the "Oxygen not included."

A pity that has stopped listening to the players that we have pushed many others to play and support and decisions are made thinking about players that do not yet exist.

Sorry for my english.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by 5thHorseman »

I quit playing Factorio because I thought it was going in the wrong direction... back (in 0.13?) when victory poles were removed and biters therefore got a lot more annoying. Sure there were mods that removed alien artifacts but I felt the base game should be that way, and felt that things would just get worse so why bother. I didn't announce it at the time because I didn't know that was a thing you do.

I came back to check out 0.15 because I heard the game was more headed in the direction I wanted it to with the removal of Alien Artifacts. I've played off and on ever since. Even if I thought this current change was bad, I don't see how it'd drive me away like that did.
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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Deadlock989 »

Preserteo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:35 am
my 11-year-old daughter has literally told me: "Now that is super easy," and now prefers to play the "Oxygen not included."
Not so much "smoothing out the difficulty curve" as flatlining it.
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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Preserteo »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Preserteo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:35 am
my 11-year-old daughter has literally told me: "Now that is super easy," and now prefers to play the "Oxygen not included."
Not so much "smoothing out the difficulty curve" as flatlining it.
My daughter doesn't understand aligning, she understands game sensations, and me too. If at the beginning Factorio had been like that there would not be this problem, but the change causes the problem to arise and that removes incentives at the beginning of the game. She's not going to get to the end of the game, but if you make the beginning to just click and think just how much people get bored, at least my daughter and I.

And that's why I say that he has stopped listening to make decisions that take a step back. If my 11 year old daughter is seeing it, something strange happens.

On the other hand for someone who starts it will be fine, he has not known anything else and will enjoy it even more than we can.

Logically, if she notices it, it makes me want to play, we are still looking for challenges that was what the game gave us a few weeks ago. Nothing happens, I have already paid and I have enjoyed the game thousands of hours, I am only one of the 7,000 million people who live in this world.

I understand what they do even if they don't share it. We play something else and that's it. But let me make my criticism for what has affected us.

By the way, the percentage of players who reach the end of the game will not increase in a very large way, as is the case with my daughter. Those of us who have kept the game high are looking for more challenges, not more ease, for that there are mods. The game has to be what it has been so far.

Good luck to everyone.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by meganothing »

RocketManChronicles wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:56 am
..., the pickaxe,... were all puzzles and gates that made the game what it was ...
As soon as I see pickaxe mentioned I really have a hard time taking an argument serious anymore.

The pickaxe itself as an item can not be called a puzzle or gate to anything. One might argue that mining by hand is too fast for the start of the game and there needs to be more grind for removing wood (I don't agree but that is subjective). But hailing it as a puzzle or gate simply shows how people cling to anything they are used to, even if it is as nonsensical as the pickaxe.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by cbhj1 »

I feel that this change is playing into the issue rather than the essence of the game. doesn't 'feel' Factorio

The source of the problem I see is that there is far too much PG demand relative to the others. leading to the whole refinery complexity dedicated to one fluid essentially.

an alternative for consideration:
keep SF on the chem pack
move sulfur to heavy oil

this provides an outlet for all 3 fluids and rewards production variety(plastic, SF, sulfur products). amortizing the refinery complexity over more products

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by crambaza »

Preserteo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:35 am
I have also uninstalled the game after more than 2500 hours and playing almost every day. The shot has been that my 11-year-old daughter has literally told me: "Now that is super easy," and now prefers to play the "Oxygen not included."

A pity that has stopped listening to the players that we have pushed many others to play and support and decisions are made thinking about players that do not yet exist.

Sorry for my english.
LOL.

I did the exact same thing! I loaded up Oxygen Not Included for the first time, called my world "Factorio Oil Change Sux", and started. I was happy to play a game that challenged me. Even complicated steps involving a bunch of machines. I didn't quit it, I kept playing.

It's so funny you said this!

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Jap2.0 »

crambaza wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:34 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:35 am
I have also uninstalled the game after more than 2500 hours and playing almost every day. The shot has been that my 11-year-old daughter has literally told me: "Now that is super easy," and now prefers to play the "Oxygen not included."

A pity that has stopped listening to the players that we have pushed many others to play and support and decisions are made thinking about players that do not yet exist.

Sorry for my english.
LOL.

I did the exact same thing! I loaded up Oxygen Not Included for the first time, called my world "Factorio Oil Change Sux", and started. I was happy to play a game that challenged me. Even complicated steps involving a bunch of machines. I didn't quit it, I kept playing.

It's so funny you said this!
:lol:

I've been meaning to buy Oxygen not included, can I consider these recommendations?
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by RocketManChronicles »

meganothing wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:56 pm
RocketManChronicles wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:56 am
..., the pickaxe,... were all puzzles and gates that made the game what it was ...
As soon as I see pickaxe mentioned I really have a hard time taking an argument serious anymore.

The pickaxe itself as an item can not be called a puzzle or gate to anything. One might argue that mining by hand is too fast for the start of the game and there needs to be more grind for removing wood (I don't agree but that is subjective). But hailing it as a puzzle or gate simply shows how people cling to anything they are used to, even if it is as nonsensical as the pickaxe.
The pickaxe was something that was to be desired under Bob's mods. He had several made form different materials where once you unlocked the ability to use those materials, you can upgrade to that pickaxe. But sometimes, based on map and game decisions, you may have researched a pickaxe one or two levels higher than others, and so you got to skip some. The top one in particular, his diamond pickaxe, could be available early if you aimed for it. You had to go through a tough series of his gem processing to get it right after steel.

As for Vanilla, I liked the fact that you had to maintain a stock of them. It was something that you had to keep an eye on while playing; and don't get stuck with using out the last one when you are far away from home. I can see why they removed it, but for modded games, it was something to be rewarded with a better pickaxe depending on the path you took. To me, they should have left it in for modders, and taken it out of vanilla. Either way, it is not nonsensical.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by crambaza »

Jap2.0 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:54 pm
crambaza wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:34 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:35 am
I have also uninstalled the game after more than 2500 hours and playing almost every day. The shot has been that my 11-year-old daughter has literally told me: "Now that is super easy," and now prefers to play the "Oxygen not included."

A pity that has stopped listening to the players that we have pushed many others to play and support and decisions are made thinking about players that do not yet exist.

Sorry for my english.
LOL.

I did the exact same thing! I loaded up Oxygen Not Included for the first time, called my world "Factorio Oil Change Sux", and started. I was happy to play a game that challenged me. Even complicated steps involving a bunch of machines. I didn't quit it, I kept playing.

It's so funny you said this!
:lol:

I've been meaning to buy Oxygen not included, can I consider these recommendations?
Well, I got in about 30 hours of game time over the long weekend (August 5th was a holiday in Canada).

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Preserteo »

Jap2.0 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:54 pm
crambaza wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:34 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:35 am
I have also uninstalled the game after more than 2500 hours and playing almost every day. The shot has been that my 11-year-old daughter has literally told me: "Now that is super easy," and now prefers to play the "Oxygen not included."

A pity that has stopped listening to the players that we have pushed many others to play and support and decisions are made thinking about players that do not yet exist.

Sorry for my english.
LOL.

I did the exact same thing! I loaded up Oxygen Not Included for the first time, called my world "Factorio Oil Change Sux", and started. I was happy to play a game that challenged me. Even complicated steps involving a bunch of machines. I didn't quit it, I kept playing.

It's so funny you said this!
:lol:

I've been meaning to buy Oxygen not included, can I consider these recommendations?
Definitely yes. In fact, the difficulty curve has been increasing over time. Upside down that Factorio.

But that is no subject for this thread.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Light »

Jap2.0 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:54 pm
crambaza wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:34 pm
Preserteo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:35 am
I have also uninstalled the game after more than 2500 hours and playing almost every day. The shot has been that my 11-year-old daughter has literally told me: "Now that is super easy," and now prefers to play the "Oxygen not included."

A pity that has stopped listening to the players that we have pushed many others to play and support and decisions are made thinking about players that do not yet exist.

Sorry for my english.
LOL.

I did the exact same thing! I loaded up Oxygen Not Included for the first time, called my world "Factorio Oil Change Sux", and started. I was happy to play a game that challenged me. Even complicated steps involving a bunch of machines. I didn't quit it, I kept playing.

It's so funny you said this!
:lol:

I've been meaning to buy Oxygen not included, can I consider these recommendations?
Fair warning: While the game certainly has a rather complex level of involvement, most of the content in the game is actually not required to achieve success. Roughly 80% of the content can be ignored, so you'll have to actively go out of your way to use many things and unfortunately certain systems were also dumbed down there too. (Though not as badly as here, since their systems are still very much in tact.)

I was heavily involved in the game many months ago and it didn't take long to notice the holes, however it most certainly is worth playing even given that flaw. I also highly suggest you try using all the different buildings and making systems with them regardless of their actual requirement to achieve victory, since they are pretty damn cool to create for the first time even if you'll likely never use them again.

Pro Tip: Temperature is your greatest enemy in the game. You must regulate temperatures between the biomes or they can melt, turn to dirt, and kill all your plants and duplicants (Builders). It's a deeply involved mechanic that will hinder your progression if you dig away too much mass, so be weary with how much you dig. Also, carbon dioxide is heavier than oxygen so be careful when digging south or your duplicants will suffocate. Keeping your O2 pressure stronger will help compact the CO2 into single tiles so they can more easily breathe.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Serenity »

Light wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:43 pm
unfortunately certain systems were also dumbed down there too. (Though not as badly as here, since their systems are still very much in tact.)
Yeah, they dumbed down the disease system. Slimelung was maybe a bit too deadly given that you are surrounded by slime on Terra, but now it doesn't really matter much. You don't need all the doctoring stuff :(
Morale also isn't much of an issue since you can control when it affects your people

But they've also removed some exploits that made things easier, like certain buildings no longer outputting stuff at a fixed temperature. The easy and overused wheezewort cooling was also nerfed heavily.
Overall they aren't as afraid of complexity as the Factorio team.

That there is a lot of optional content is also something that wouldn't happen with the Factorio streamlining. Now you almost have to be afraid that everything non-essential will be cut. People are already asking why barrels are still in the game
Also, carbon dioxide is heavier than oxygen so be careful when digging south or your duplicants will suffocate.
Digging deep so that the CO2 can sink down can also be very good for your base

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Light »

Serenity wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:54 pm
Light wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:43 pm
unfortunately certain systems were also dumbed down there too. (Though not as badly as here, since their systems are still very much in tact.)
Yeah, they dumbed down the disease system. Slimelung was maybe a bit too deadly given that you are surrounded by slime on Terra, but now it doesn't really matter much :(
But they've also removed some exploits that made things easier, like certain buildings no longer outputting stuff at a fixed temperature. Overall they aren't as afraid of complexity as the Factorio team
Also, carbon dioxide is heavier than oxygen so be careful when digging south or your duplicants will suffocate.
Digging deep so that the CO2 can sink down can also be very good for your base
I was also thinking of how sustaining very specific temperatures for your plants also created additional food from being in the perfect environment for growth. Now you simply need to keep them within a rather wide range to make food regardless. It was awesome that it rewarded you at the time for being a bit of a perfectionist and mastering the temperature and pressure systems, with no detriment for those who didn't care since they still got food just at a slightly reduced quantity. That's how you make a game that rewards both styles of play and creates an incentive to 'Git Gud', it's a shame they ended up removing it. I don't exactly remember why either.

A moderate size pit of CO2 is certainly beneficial at the start and also for growing mushrooms, though I've survived 2000 cycles on just mealwood (No joke).

Talking about it makes me want to play again, especially now that it's out of early access with some improvements since I left. I look forward to playing around with the new tools they've provided to further refine my old designs to absolute perfection.

But I digress...

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Koub »

[Koub] All this Oxygen Not Included discussion is seriously off topic. I'm sure there are better places to discuss about it, like the Oxygen Not Included forums, I guess.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by T-A-R »

Okokokok, people, sloooow down. We still disagree on the pick axe, I' was also tempted to reply, but i took a breath. I won't. not again. We passed that station. Let's try to stay reasonable.

For some it had value to keep it, and for other not at all. Remember, just personal opinions about the history of Factorio.
It was removed but not forgotten by both (pro-con) groups of players. It was mentioned in a bigger picture. Not ment to dig up that specific argument.

No further opinions on the isolated pick axe required here in 0.17(!) if it is ripped out of context of the original post plz. that's just plain inciting to more distraction/flaming.
Point "not taking post serious since argument x" is noted. Next.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by lacika2000 »

lacika2000 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:04 am
V453000 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:54 am
Basically, yes. I personally preferred more the option of Heavy + Gas, but they are very similar changes with relatively small details. Their general issue is that they don't solve much, yet include roughly the same problems.
V4530000: please consider my proposal,
lacika2000 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:51 am
building on
mcdjfp wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:39 pm
and do let me know what you think with respect to solving the player’s hurdle facing oil refining.
Indeed: back to oil, if possible. I wrote a proposal (see above the link) on how to easy player difficulty while keeping possible complexity in BOP.

TLDR; keep all outputs in BOP, but change the behavior of the refinery to not stop when backed up on one or two of the streams but internally consume these, and only produce what it can output. AOP would only introduce cracking, not changing the refinery oil product ratios.

Benefits: keep the complexity of three products, but allow “on choice” complexity to the player. Improving the product ratios to match the factory consumption will require cracking for higher efficiency, especially if the BOP ratio reflect normal refining (e.g., 40-30-30 HO-LO-PG), but all this can be done at the player’s choice of “debottlenecking” the refinery complex (i.e., choice of more refineries or cracking for capacity for any if the desired product streams).

Any thoughts on this?

Extra benefit next to easier player experience is the potential to have con bots earlier as this does not have to be behind the blue science wall...

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by V453000 »

lacika2000 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:51 am
lacika2000 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:04 am
V453000 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:54 am
Basically, yes. I personally preferred more the option of Heavy + Gas, but they are very similar changes with relatively small details. Their general issue is that they don't solve much, yet include roughly the same problems.
V4530000: please consider my proposal,
lacika2000 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:51 am
building on
mcdjfp wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:39 pm
and do let me know what you think with respect to solving the player’s hurdle facing oil refining.
Indeed: back to oil, if possible. I wrote a proposal (see above the link) on how to easy player difficulty while keeping possible complexity in BOP.

TLDR; keep all outputs in BOP, but change the behavior of the refinery to not stop when backed up on one or two of the streams but internally consume these, and only produce what it can output. AOP would only introduce cracking, not changing the refinery oil product ratios.

Benefits: keep the complexity of three products, but allow “on choice” complexity to the player. Improving the product ratios to match the factory consumption will require cracking for higher efficiency, especially if the BOP ratio reflect normal refining (e.g., 40-30-30 HO-LO-PG), but all this can be done at the player’s choice of “debottlenecking” the refinery complex (i.e., choice of more refineries or cracking for capacity for any if the desired product streams).

Any thoughts on this?

Extra benefit next to easier player experience is the potential to have con bots earlier as this does not have to be behind the blue science wall...
But that's completely inconsistent with anything in Factorio - items never disappear (with some exceptions, and when things are consumed like in labs/ammo/fuel).

I don't really see how does it improve anything other than being more confusing.

I've read somewhere above the "you make BOP have built-in flare stacks but hate the flare stack solution". Obviously the key difference is that AOP has no flare stack available, and the puzzle has to be solved.

The "there are too many things on petroleum gas" point is really dangerous to change - if for example we would put sulfur into heavy oil, it could very easily happen that your refinery would deadlock because you only want to produce batteries/acid, say for mining uranium and laser turrets. Even with AOP and proper automated cracking system, the only solution would be to store your petroleum gas/light oil products somewhere - introducing the same problem as BOP used to have, without a possible proper solution. This can happen right now, too, in a case when you would want to produce a lot/only lubricant, or a lot/only rocket fuel. However both of those cases are quite unlikely and generally don't happen too often, or for too long period of time, as the amount of petroleum gas is pretty much always high.

I'm sorry if I'm missing something, I probably missed/lost some things among the off-topic etc.

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