Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

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Amarula
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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Amarula »

zenos14 wrote: ↑
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:28 pm
Honestly, thinking on it more, cause I go for bots not so much for logistics or construction, but deconstruction and having an early game bulldozer bot or something that's only good for tearing up trees/rocks/buildings and dropping them off in chests would alleviate a lot of my concerns on both the idea of delaying bots AND now long it currently takes new players to get them
This! This is brilliant! I would go even further, I would have a new bulldozer bot that 1) only tears down rocks and trees, you need a conbot for buildings; and 2) does not give you back any stone or lumber, it is just gone. When trying to build a new outpost, and the train track to that outpost, I just want all those trees out of the way. The lumber isn't particularly valuable (except for the joy of blowing up chests full of it), and the amount of stone tends to be insignificant compared to the amount of rail required, so not having to worry about storing it seems to me a fair trade-off.
My own personal Factorio super-power - running out of power.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Adamo »

Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:57 pm
You forget to note in the description that a new game should be started since the mod adds new type of resource. Plus this: was it really necessary to change the name of crude oil to "crude petroleum"?
Is that necessary? In the past, when I've added resources in the middle of a game, they still showed up in new chunks, I thought.

I changed the name of crude oil to crude petroleum a long time ago in my mod set... within that context, it makes sense to put those name changes in this module. It might not make sense for you, but I did share the code with no license! I don't know a way to easily gate locale changes behind a setting, sorry.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Yandersen »

Adamo, the gas boiler. Not unlocked. I wonder to see how it works.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Adamo »

Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:05 pm
Adamo, the gas boiler. Not unlocked. I wonder to see how it works.
I'm not sure what you're saying. It should get unlocked with fluid handling. It works essentially the same as a normal boiler, except you will cut your pollution in half if you use natural gas or methane.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Yandersen »

Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:06 pm
Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:05 pm
Adamo, the gas boiler. Not unlocked. I wonder to see how it works.
I'm not sure what you're saying. It should get unlocked with fluid handling. It works essentially the same as a normal boiler, except you will cut your pollution in half if you use natural gas or methane.
Tried in the late game where this was unlocked already. Is this a cause?

Anyway. Generally, I expected to see the simplified version like "Natural gas" = "vanilla petroleum gas".
Last edited by Yandersen on Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Adamo »

Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:08 pm
Tried in the late game where this was unlocked already. Is this a cause?
If you have already researched fluid handling but the boiler didn't show up, try running the command

/c game.player.force.reset_technology_effects()

I will double check the code.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Adamo »

Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:08 pm
Anyway. Generally, I expected to see the simplified version like "Natural gas" = "vanilla petroleum gas".
Yes, that's what I remember us talking about before. But I went a different direction with it, for now... it's just a toy at the moment, based loosely on real-world ratios. Not sure what the end result should be. Feel free to give me your ideas.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by BlueTemplar »

Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:01 pm
I changed the name of crude oil to crude petroleum a long time ago in my mod set...
Adamo Carbon wrote:A fork of a subset from my large chemical mod.
Oh, my bad, I forgot that you too had made a complex petrochem mod years ago...
BobDiggity (mod-scenario-pack)

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Yandersen »

Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:14 pm
Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:08 pm
Anyway. Generally, I expected to see the simplified version like "Natural gas" = "vanilla petroleum gas".
Yes, that's what I remember us talking about before. But I went a different direction with it, for now... it's just a toy at the moment, based loosely on real-world ratios. Not sure what the end result should be. Feel free to give me your ideas.
Well, I like mods that add least possible new things and change vanilla in a direction of improvement rather than introducing anything new. Therefore, I suggest the following:

1) Replace "natural gas" with vanilla's PG, remove methane branch and recipes. Simplicity. Occam's way.

2) If that is possible to reuse pumpjack for both PG extraction and crude oil extraction, so the output automatically shifts depending on what type of resource it was placed over (like mining drill on uranium ore, you get the idea), than this is a way to go. The idea of adding the pump even into the "pumpjack" recipe is perfect, as it utilizes engine units encouraging the player to produce those and think more of the trains to transport liquids from far oil/gas extraction sites to the base.

3) Again the same with boilers. Is it possible to rework the gas boilers so it can consume all liquid fuels including even crude oils and the solid-type fuels like coal, SF, RF as well? If so, just replace the vanilla boilers with those unified multipurpose things.

4) Mod name. I suggest "Natural gas + multipurpose boilers".

1+2+3+4 = a perfect standalone mod. IMHO.
Last edited by Yandersen on Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:09 pm
Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:08 pm
Tried in the late game where this was unlocked already. Is this a cause?
If you have already researched fluid handling but the boiler didn't show up, try running the command

/c game.player.force.reset_technology_effects()

I will double check the code.
Adamo, take a look at my Sulfur mod's control.lua file and see if you can adapt that code to your needs. It checks to see if the sulfur processing tech has already been researched and, if it has, unlocks the 2 new added techs.
My Mods: Classic Factorio Basic Oil Processing | Sulfur Production from Oils | Wood to Oil Processing | Infinite Resources - Normal Yield | Tree Saplings (Redux) | Alien Biomes Tweaked | Restrictions on Artificial Tiles | New Gear Girl & HR Graphics

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:26 pm
Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:14 pm
Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:08 pm
Anyway. Generally, I expected to see the simplified version like "Natural gas" = "vanilla petroleum gas".
Yes, that's what I remember us talking about before. But I went a different direction with it, for now... it's just a toy at the moment, based loosely on real-world ratios. Not sure what the end result should be. Feel free to give me your ideas.
Well, I like mods that add least possible new things and change vanilla in a direction of improvement rather than introducing anything new. Therefore, I suggest the following:

1) Replace "natural gas" with vanilla's PG, remove methane branch and recipes. Simplicity. Occam's way.

2) If that is possible to reuse pumpjack for both PG extraction and crude oil extraction, so the output automatically shifts depending on what type of resource it was placed over (like mining drill on uranium ore, you get the idea), than this is a way to go. The idea of adding the pump even into the "pumpjack" recipe is perfect, as it utilizes engine units encouraging the player to produce those and think more of the trains to transport liquids from far oil/gas extraction sites to the base.

3) Again the same with boilers. Is it possible to rework the gas boilers so it can consume all liquid fuels including even crude oils and the solid-type fuels like coal, SF, RF as well? If so, just replace the vanilla boilers with those unified multipurpose things.

1+2+3 = a perfect standalone mod. IMHO.
For 3, I think it's only possible for them to take either fluid or solids, not both, and if you don't want to be able to put water into a fluid fired boiler, then the filters only allow for 1 fluid type. They never implemented a fluids = {} property citing ups reasons (edit: viewtopic.php?f=221&t=46302).
Last edited by FuryoftheStars on Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My Mods: Classic Factorio Basic Oil Processing | Sulfur Production from Oils | Wood to Oil Processing | Infinite Resources - Normal Yield | Tree Saplings (Redux) | Alien Biomes Tweaked | Restrictions on Artificial Tiles | New Gear Girl & HR Graphics

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Adamo »

Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:26 pm
Well, I like mods that add least possible new things and change vanilla in a direction of improvement rather than introducing anything new. Therefore, I suggest the following:

1) Replace "natural gas" with vanilla's PG, remove methane branch and recipes. Simplicity. Occam's way.
I'll think about it, but I don't think I like it. Petroleum Gas isn't natural gas, after all.
Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:26 pm
2) If that is possible to reuse pumpjack for both PG extraction and crude oil extraction, so the output automatically shifts depending on what type of resource it was placed over (like mining drill on uranium ore, you get the idea), than this is a way to go. The idea of adding the pump even into the "pumpjack" recipe is perfect, as it utilizes engine units encouraging the player to produce those and think more of the trains to transport liquids from far oil/gas extraction sites to the base.
This is entirely possible. I explicitly used a different resource category for the natural gas, and therefore a different wellhead, but it could be setup to use the same pumpjack.
Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:26 pm
3) Again the same with boilers. Is it possible to rework the gas boilers so it can consume all liquid fuels including even crude oils and the solid-type fuels like coal, SF, RF as well? If so, just replace the vanilla boilers with those unified multipurpose things.
Solid fuels, no. Must be one or the other. Re: other fluid fuels: the boiler I made already does this, in fact. To make this work I had to add fuel values to each fluid, which I did for PG, LO, HO, and CO.

Thank you!
Last edited by Adamo on Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Yandersen »

FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:31 pm
I think it's only possible for them to take either fluid or solids, not both, and if you don't want to be able to put water into a fluid fired boiler, then the filters only allow for 1 fluid type. They never implemented a fluids = {} property citing ups reasons (edit: viewtopic.php?f=221&t=46302).
Well, I know nothing about modding Factorio, but I remember boilers not accepting anything except specific set of items... O.o

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:34 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:31 pm
I think it's only possible for them to take either fluid or solids, not both, and if you don't want to be able to put water into a fluid fired boiler, then the filters only allow for 1 fluid type. They never implemented a fluids = {} property citing ups reasons (edit: viewtopic.php?f=221&t=46302).
Well, I know nothing about modding Factorio, but I remember boilers not accepting anything except specific set of items... O.o
Yeah, for items I'm guessing it looks for anything with a fuel_value, but I don't think it does this with fluids (to be honest I haven't tried, I just know that you can't filter to a set of fluids, only one or all).
My Mods: Classic Factorio Basic Oil Processing | Sulfur Production from Oils | Wood to Oil Processing | Infinite Resources - Normal Yield | Tree Saplings (Redux) | Alien Biomes Tweaked | Restrictions on Artificial Tiles | New Gear Girl & HR Graphics

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Antaios »

mmmPI wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:59 am
The research gui has come a long way since 0.16, I don't think it will be difficult for new players to find 'advanced oil processing' when they figure out there's something to oil they're missing and go looking for it.

I do think there is perhaps advances to be made in the science using up more other resources than just petroleum heavily, so as to lessen the impact. Nevertheless, between tanks, solid fuel and lubricant there is more than enough for a player, even a new player, to handle the situation until advanced oil processing. Going from 3 outputs to 2 is pointless and only serves to limit the player as with those ways of handling the situation the difference between 2 and 3 liquids is nil.

I did some quick math (with recipes before 304)
You need to make:
1666 advanced circuits, or
1111 blue science, or
1111 batteries,
To fill up a tank with light or heavy oil byproducts, using basic oil processing, IF you are using none of those products whatsoever (this doesn't even account for blue using solid fuel).

That's a lot, for things that craft slowly and that the player at that point in the game won't be producing very many of quickly.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Adamo »

FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:40 pm
Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:34 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:31 pm
I think it's only possible for them to take either fluid or solids, not both, and if you don't want to be able to put water into a fluid fired boiler, then the filters only allow for 1 fluid type. They never implemented a fluids = {} property citing ups reasons (edit: viewtopic.php?f=221&t=46302).
Well, I know nothing about modding Factorio, but I remember boilers not accepting anything except specific set of items... O.o
Yeah, for items I'm guessing it looks for anything with a fuel_value, but I don't think it does this with fluids (to be honest I haven't tried, I just know that you can't filter to a set of fluids, only one or all).
It doesn't seem possible to tell from the GUI which fluids will be accepted by the boiler. I can't find a place that shows a fluid's fuel value. So I will just tell you that the fuels it should accept are CO, LO, HO, PG, plus my Natural Gas and Methane I've introduced, and anything else that anyone else has added a fuel_value to. Other fluids will flow into the boiler's chamber, but they will not initiate burnination.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:43 pm
Other fluids will flow into the boiler's chamber, but they will not initiate burnination.
Yeah, I think this was what I was trying to get at. :)
My Mods: Classic Factorio Basic Oil Processing | Sulfur Production from Oils | Wood to Oil Processing | Infinite Resources - Normal Yield | Tree Saplings (Redux) | Alien Biomes Tweaked | Restrictions on Artificial Tiles | New Gear Girl & HR Graphics

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Yandersen »

Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:31 pm
Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:26 pm
Well, I like mods that add least possible new things and change vanilla in a direction of improvement rather than introducing anything new. Therefore, I suggest the following:

1) Replace "natural gas" with vanilla's PG, remove methane branch and recipes. Simplicity. Occam's way.
I'll think about it, but I don't think I like it. Petroleum Gas isn't natural gas, after all.
Everything is relative. Look at the vanilla game and shake your head in desperation. No need to be too realistic. Value the impact on the gameplay, it is no less important, don't forget it. Modders tend to do so too often, and the result satisfies only them alone in the end. :P Remember that you creating mod for a large set of people, most of which do not know that much of details and really don't care, actually. It is a game, which main purpose is to entertain, not that much to educate. Just find a balance between realism and simplisity and stick to it, even if it is not that pleasing for you personally from realism aspect of things.
Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:31 pm
Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:26 pm
3) Again the same with boilers. Is it possible to rework the gas boilers so it can consume all liquid fuels including even crude oils and the solid-type fuels like coal, SF, RF as well? If so, just replace the vanilla boilers with those unified multipurpose things.
Solid fuels, no. Must be one or the other. Re: other fluid fuels: the boiler I made already does this, in fact. To make this work I had to add fuel values to each fluid, which I did for PG, LO, HO, and CO.
Tried with LO and it gave me "No fuel" sign.
Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:31 pm
Thank you!
No, Sir, thank YOU!
Image
Last edited by Yandersen on Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Adamo »

Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:47 pm
Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:31 pm
Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:26 pm
Well, I like mods that add least possible new things and change vanilla in a direction of improvement rather than introducing anything new. Therefore, I suggest the following:

1) Replace "natural gas" with vanilla's PG, remove methane branch and recipes. Simplicity. Occam's way.
I'll think about it, but I don't think I like it. Petroleum Gas isn't natural gas, after all.
Everything is relative. Look at the vanilla game and shake your head in desperation. No need to be too realistic. Value the impact on the gameplay, it is no less important, don't forget it. Modders tend to do so too often, and the result satisfies only them alone in the end. :P Remember that you creating mod for a large set of people, most of which do not know that much of details and really don't care, actually. It is a game, which main purpose is to entertain, not that much to educate. Just find a balance between realism and simplisity and stick to it, even if it is not that pleasing for you personally from realism aspect of things.
Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:31 pm
Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:26 pm
3) Again the same with boilers. Is it possible to rework the gas boilers so it can consume all liquid fuels including even crude oils and the solid-type fuels like coal, SF, RF as well? If so, just replace the vanilla boilers with those unified multipurpose things.
Solid fuels, no. Must be one or the other. Re: other fluid fuels: the boiler I made already does this, in fact. To make this work I had to add fuel values to each fluid, which I did for PG, LO, HO, and CO.
Tried with LO and it gave me "No fuel" sign.
Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:31 pm
Thank you!
No, Sir, THANK YOU!
Image
I will think about what you said!

Are you sure you put the LO in the right place? I did test that it works, but it's possible that I missed something. The fuel oil has to go in on the opposite side from the steam output. The water comes in from either side, like a normal boiler.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:47 pm
Modders tend to do so too often, and the result satisfies only them alone in the end. :P Remember that you creating mod for a large set of people
I can't speak for all modders, but some of us do actually create the mods for ourselves, then decide to share it with the large set of people.
My Mods: Classic Factorio Basic Oil Processing | Sulfur Production from Oils | Wood to Oil Processing | Infinite Resources - Normal Yield | Tree Saplings (Redux) | Alien Biomes Tweaked | Restrictions on Artificial Tiles | New Gear Girl & HR Graphics

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