Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

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mmmPI
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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by mmmPI »

Antaios wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:33 am
mmmPI wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:57 am
I do understand your others points, this one i'm a bit torn, like yeah adding tanks is the legit way to do, this is not a cheese and basically is integral part of why there is a problem in the first place, how many tanks will be needed ??? o damn i need to fix that thing i can't continue adding more.

But then you can remove them at no cost ( which would be a torture for newplayers if you can't EDIT: well just shoot them is enough i guess). so ehm not fully satisfied.
The thing is, I see no reason why someone who is running out of space for tanks (surely you can fit a pipe to a tank somewhere else, if you're desperate), or doesn't want to continue making them, wouldn't look through the tech tree and see advanced oil processing, right there. This information is all available to the player, the information they need to focus whatever goal they want, if the player is truly feeling like it is a problem.
If you know what you are doing there's few reasons. But if you try setting a refinery for the first time, it's different, you might not find the AOP in the tech tree easily and understand in advance that this will solve the problem since you have cracking. You can conclude that only if you already understand the general system.

Even if you do, you might be running low on ressources/ attacked by biters, taking lots of times to setup your blue science, trying to make robots with only BOP, and wrongfully conclude that you need to burn all the byproducts as solid fuel ( and feel you can't) , you can also have build like only 2 refinery surrounded by chemical plants everywhere, and don't understand why the tank you are adding at the other side of the factory are not filling up. ( personnal memories were used).

The idea is not baby-proofing so that it become absolutly impossible that the player be tempted to remove a full tank ever. Nor is it to punish beginners for trying stuff, but imagine someone ask you like a quick tip, you can't explain them the whole system, you'd say just " build more tank before AOP " is weird, saying like "if you have too much of this make this", " if you have too much of that make that". So that you understand in a basic form the output blocking problem.

Sure you don't have a way to effiently solve it, but you have an "good way" to "wait" before you have this more elegant way, that is cracking.

One "good way" to wait would be science consuming the proper ratio. ( no need for storing unless you try something out of the beaten path, and there you'd still have a way to solve your problem by storing a more transformed product , solid fuel, or sulfur, so that you are less inclined to remove tank, but rather build chest.)

I do share many of your points , the difference between 2 and 3 outputs in complexity is very small, but yet i hope it is enough.
The GUI /tutorial improvement might be redundant ( better safe than sorry as long as it doesn't impact negatively the game right ?)

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by huancz »

Therax wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:19 am
The key point being that a player thinks they have oil processing correctly set up and moves on to other things, only to find later that oil processing has stopped for unknown reasons. The delay between the problem being created and the problem becoming visible is part of what makes this tricky to learn for a new player.
If player doesn't connect all outputs, the problem manifests itself within few seconds - they can certainly spend that much time to see if their design is working as intended (if not, they probably quit long time ago). Especially because they are dealing with completely new tech they are unsure if they got right. If on the other hand they had foresight to include tanks for the waste products, they probably already had at least suspicion it won't be so simple.

What remains is middle ground - they connect all outputs to some sink (SF most likely, at least I did) but the ratios mean that plastics production is mediocre, hindered by boilers and science not eating enough of SF. What I had at that phase of game, when I was really just starting to deal with oil? Manually supplied input box full of coal, two output boxes, one for plastics and one for sulphur (later one more box for explosives). All three produced by one refinery connected to one chem factory, switched manually to produce what I was lacking (HO2SF and LO2SF had their own factories and belt to boilers). If I needed advanced circuits, I grabbed couple stacks of plastics from that box and cooked them in suit, or maybe stuffed them manually into assembler set to making them. Between all the stuff needing my attention that Antaios mentions in his insightful post, the box was always full, even in very suboptimal setup.

I already said it above, many people did. Oil products backing up is just very small part of the problem - it's the all the stuff that needs attention together that is so overwhelming.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by V453000 »

Theikkru wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:47 am
vampiricdust wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:58 am
I notice you do realize that the issue with oil is resource sinks. However, I think you're over estimating the ability of solid fuel to be a sink. Until you get to end game, even science packs are not a sufficient resource sink to make it a tool for balancing consumption.

The balance of oil is entirely driven by the player's factory build, their priorities, and rate of progression.
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:43 am
Sure, solid fuel can be used to compensate, but its not that obvious and blue science only uses a fraction of it.
See:
V453000 wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:00 pm
Option 1: Solid fuel in Chemical science pack, Sulfur made from PG
- "don't make me produce SF inefficiently" people will hate. I don't find it to be a huge deal though, and it would be completely clear that AOP unlocks more efficient Solid Fuel - it could even be written in the technology description.
- AOP still mandatory for rocket fuel
- the idea of increasing the amount of solid fuel for the science pack is not stupid at all, the player could put all Heavy into SF if they do not use Lubricant, or add from PG if they are, or if they want to burn some
- easy change, no need for math as petroleum gas has a sink pretty much always (sulfur and/or plastic)
Solid fuel can and will constitute a sufficient resource sink if tuned correctly on the chemical science pack. First off, remember that this balance by solid fuel is only necessary until advanced processing is researched, because cracking will take over at that point. Therefore, only a rather narrow band of the tech tree needs to be considered: that between basic oil and advanced oil. Within this band, there aren't actually that many persistent sinks for plastic or sulfur products that do not involve chemical science (primarily level 1 modules and cliff explosives). Additionally, chemical science does not have to consume some arbitrarily large amount of solid fuel to act as a balancing factor, just more than it consumes in petroleum gas products (advanced circuits). If a player is experiencing an excess of an oil product, then chemical science will present itself as a natural sink for solid fuel that is produced with that excess, encouraging the player to produce more of it in order to relieve the backup. The more chemical science is produced, the more chemical science technologies the player will research to use it, until they inevitably click on advanced oil processing. The point here is not to remove the pressure of oil imbalances entirely, but to configure it in such a way that it naturally guides players to its solution, (cracking,) as opposed to locking up the factory with no obvious way out. Balancing the chemical pack to consume more solid fuel is definitely capable of that.
This is pretty much exactly what I'm thinking and working with right now. I just increased the science pack to need 3 solid fuels per recipe, and that already means you need to consume all of your heavy oil for solid fuel, and add a little bit from gas to get a science pack, the rest you can spend on plastic.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by jodokus31 »

Antaios wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:56 am
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:43 am
IMHO, they search a solution, where you don't need tanks to compensate in the first place. If all oil products could be used properly, i think the issue wouldn't be there. Sure, solid fuel can be used to compensate, but its not that obvious and blue science only uses a fraction of it.
We also can discuss, if this is an interesting behaviour and if it should stay in this exact place. I could live with it and it has some appeal.
Interesting is, that this exact "problem" disappears later, because you have the tools to avoid it, but that is the next hurdle
The requirement to balance the different oil liquids persist throughout the game, there is no way to use them properly in order to remove this factor.
This factor exists and I think its a good mechanic. Proper usage is a different thing.
Currently, the balancing starts as soon the current (old) BOP is started. The problem is you produce more of some fluids, which have no apparent use. The balance break immediately, with no chance to get it back other than adding tanks or producing solid fuel.
I would vote for a solution where you have the chance to use it all (f.e. science consumption), while BOP is running. This way you can use it properly, without cracking or tanking. This does not have to mean, that you can't branch out and break the balance. And of course using tanks.
Antaios wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:56 am
Providing the liquids later, at the same time as cracking, exposes the setup of tanks filling up with unused stuff later on or possibly even not at all, as a new player might just mindlessly place chemical plants cracking heavy and light oil simply because it is there, without understanding why. Then when things back up, the entire setup is more complicated and involves ratios of cracking plants, the tank solution isn't the one we'd be pushing at this point since cracking is available. In this case, there is no simple system to acclimate them first in order to be ready for the full cracking system, it's a jump immediately to the complex solution, right when most of what they're already setting up is other, similarly, new production chains and when they're supposed to be ramping up the oil products not just getting them running in the first place.
I meant that cracking is the next hurdle. This tool helps to get balance back, which is likely to break later. The proposal of FFF-305 could have this effect you described, when the player is overwhelmed by AOP and cracking at the same time. Thats why I prefer the V's alternatives given with Heavy + PG.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Mernom »

Just my 2 cents regarding the concern of promoting the 'worse' method of making solid fuel by unlocking only the gas recipe for it first: lock the light recipe behind a 'better fuel refining methods' tech. Done.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by BlueTemplar »

Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:44 am
Who was it that originally suggested we have a natural gas alternative to crude oil for getting at the basics? I decided to build out a mod of that, and thought I would send it your way.
If you intend to add Natural Gas as a resource, you might also want to take a look at Angel's Petrochem ? (if you haven't already...)

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Yandersen »

Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:44 am
Who was it that originally suggested we have a natural gas alternative to crude oil for getting at the basics? I decided to build out a mod of that, and thought I would send it your way.
Me. Thinking out of the box constraints is a my thingy. XD

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by LightspeedLazer »

Here's my piece:

-Oil Changes-

My Proposition: Basic Oil Processing should output Light Oil and Petroleum.
Why? Instead of postponing the inevitable, this will ease the player into multi-output recipes so they are prepared for Advanced Oil Processing.

-Chemical Science Changes-

My Proposition: Instead of Sulfur in Chemical Science, use Batteries. Reduce Advanced Circuit input to 2.
Why? So you have Battery production for when you get Accumulators, Worker Robots, Combat Robots, and the Satellite.
Also you have Sulfuric Acid Production for Processing Units and Uranium.
And you still have that chemical air to Oil Processing.
Reduce Advanced Circuit input because currently I think that Advanced Circuits is another big thing that new players struggle at.

-Rocket Fuel Changes-

My Proposition: Change the Light Oil input to Heavy Oil for Rocket Fuel.
Why? With Light Oil, you are basically repeating a ingredient. With Heavy Oil, you can still lock Rocket Fuel behind Advanced Oil Processing and not have to repeat a ingredient.

-TL;DR-

My Proposition: Basic Oil Processing should output Light Oil and Petroleum.
Use Batteries in Chemical Science instead of Sulfur.
Replace Light Oil with Heavy Oil for Rocket Fuel.
Last edited by LightspeedLazer on Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Adamo »

Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:08 pm
Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:44 am
Who was it that originally suggested we have a natural gas alternative to crude oil for getting at the basics? I decided to build out a mod of that, and thought I would send it your way.
Me. Thinking out of the box constraints is a my thingy. XD
I'm just finishing up balancing the natural gas mod right now. I'll post it in a sec so we can have something shiny to play with, instead of worrying about all these changes. I just saw that people are seriously talking about removing temperature, now, too. :( Good lord I hope we are not going down a bad path.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by LightspeedLazer »

If Chemical Science now requires Sulfur, increase the quantity needed, and reduce the Advanced Circuit requirement.
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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Yandersen »

Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:15 pm
I'm just finishing up balancing the natural gas mod right now. I'll post it in a sec so we can have something shiny to play with, instead of worrying about all these changes.
Well, if you are really want to make oil great (+realistic), then there is an ultimate solution the V will never accept - a "built-in flare stack" as he mocked it. To make it short, a refinery continues production until all of the outputs get full (so if at least one product is taken, cycle continues), and whatever did not fit in the output storage, automatically turns into extra pollution generated by the refinery. So yeah, like a built-in flare stack. There is more to it - AOP differs from BOP only in one way - in addition to 3 liquid outputs (the same ratio as BOP) it also producing sulfur as well.

So the better you utilize all the products the refinery provides, the less pollution it generates and longer the deposits will last. I think it is a far more interesting and pleasing puzzle to solve than current balancing that just forces you to do things that seem unwanted, impractical, ridiculous and unrealistic. The V will never understand, I got it already, seeing him going in circles for two weeks, so it is up to modders to fix the oil.
Last edited by Yandersen on Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by FuryoftheStars »

LightspeedLazer wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:10 pm
I suggest that Wube, if they really have to, change Basic Oil Processing to have outputs of Light Oil and Petroleum. This way the player is eased into multi-output machines and recipes on a small scale. This would make it so that if the player gets to Advanced Oil Processing, they don't hit a wall, instead they know exactly what to do. Adding Light Oil to the output would allow players to process Solid Fuel at the most efficient way possible. If you change Rocket Fuel to take Heavy Oil and not Light Oil, you can still have Rocket Fuel locked away behind Advanced Oil Processing.
Or (and again, not that I'm actually advocating that basic oil processing needs a direct change) instead of light and petrol, make it heavy and petrol. In this way, you have less techs that you need to move around to compensate and bots can still be unlocked before blue science.
My Mods: Classic Factorio Basic Oil Processing | Sulfur Production from Oils | Wood to Oil Processing | Infinite Resources - Normal Yield | Tree Saplings (Redux) | Alien Biomes Tweaked | Restrictions on Artificial Tiles | New Gear Girl & HR Graphics

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Serenity »

A flare stack could still be simulated in a simplified HO + PG BOP. Make it output more pollution. That way people can't claim that it magically gets rid of some of the oil. That's also a bit of an incentive to switch to AOP. Just not for megabases
Also, the refinery model includes a flare stack. It's how you notice that it's running :)

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:15 pm
I just saw that people are seriously talking about removing temperature, now, too. :( Good lord I hope we are not going down a bad path.
Well, this one, though, was for UPS reasons and there were a couple suggestions to implement that would allow one to continue to do everything you could before except directly mixing fluids of different temps.
My Mods: Classic Factorio Basic Oil Processing | Sulfur Production from Oils | Wood to Oil Processing | Infinite Resources - Normal Yield | Tree Saplings (Redux) | Alien Biomes Tweaked | Restrictions on Artificial Tiles | New Gear Girl & HR Graphics

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Yandersen »

V+Community wrote: "Add this and cut that, change this to to that. And so on."
{continues for two weeks}
"Finally we are getting close to the point where refinery is perfectly balanced and produce everything in such a ratio, that cracking is not even needed! Well, assuming each player produces everything in a ratios we assumed he will be..."
You see where it all goes? I think I do. Seems like we actually removing the oil puzzle and put players on the rails. Freedom of choices will be punished by refinery backup and manual building&deconstruction of tanks (which is essentially a pollution-free flare stack, isn't it?) ;) But built-in flare stack is no go. Nonono, right, V? XD
Last edited by Yandersen on Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Adamo »

Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:30 pm
Here's a start. If you try it, let me know what you think. It will still need more balancing and I'll figure out how to improve some of the icons.

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/adamo-carbon

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Bilka »

Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:15 pm
I just saw that people are seriously talking about removing temperature, now, too. :( Good lord I hope we are not going down a bad path.
The fluid temperature conversation was over with 0.17.0 release, such a big modding change would have to be done with a major version. I suggest to take a look at post dates before freaking out about potential changes.
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Adamo »

Bilka wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:50 pm
Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:15 pm
I just saw that people are seriously talking about removing temperature, now, too. :( Good lord I hope we are not going down a bad path.
The fluid temperature conversation was over with 0.17.0 release, such a big modding change would have to be done with a major version. I suggest to take a look at post dates before freaking out about potential changes.
Well, maybe you can understand my worry! People have been bringing it up during these conversations, then I saw the posts over there. OK, I'm glad to hear it isn't happening.

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Yandersen »

Adamo wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:48 pm
Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:30 pm
Here's a start. If you try it, let me know what you think. It will still need more balancing and I'll figure out how to improve some of the icons.

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/adamo-carbon
You forget to note in the description that a new game should be started since the mod adds new type of resource. Plus this: was it really necessary to change the name of crude oil to "crude petroleum"?

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Re: Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

Post by Adamo »

Yandersen wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:57 pm
You forget to note in the description that a new game should be started since the mod adds new type of resource. Plus this: was it really necessary to change the name of crude oil to "crude petroleum"?
Is that necessary? In the past, when I've added resources in the middle of a game, they still showed up in new chunks, I thought.

I changed the name of crude oil to crude petroleum a long time ago in my mod set... within that context, it makes sense to put those name changes in this module. It might not make sense for you, but I did share the code with no license!

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