Please, don't make silly comparisons. Trains only need stone, steel, green circuits and basic engines.morsk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:01 pm[...]
Early bots are for anyone who wants early bots. The same with trains, or combinators, or feeding two coal miners into each other. It's not only for people who know how to do it the first time. At that rate, trains would require blue or purple science, and beacons and electric furnaces would take space science.
While conbots also need lubricant and batteries, and 45 red circuits per roboport to actually use them. (And personal roboports need 50 blue science.)
And guess what, blue science also needs red circuits... and in 0.17.0 solid fuel, which is probably the easiest of all petrochem products.
One could even say that blue science is easier to set up than conbots !
(As suggested multiple times already.)
Now, that extra (200-)250 blue science sounds to be non-negligible - that's 375 red circuits, 125 solid fuel and 250 engines...
(emphasis mine)slay_mithos wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:04 pmFunny enough, the ones that will suffer the most from these changes are new players and those slightly less new, all of the people that already struggle in learning how to defend against bitter attacks.
Until now the tips we could give them were along the lines of "use piercing rounds in turrets and put some walls, but try to quickly unlock laser turrets and construction robots (you don't need that many at the start so it doesn't matter if your factory is sub-par for making those parts just yet), those will help you make your base a lot safer and the robots will repair damage caused by the bitters and spitters, letting you earn enough time to safely research tanks, flame throwers and damage upgrades in order to have the tools to both defend and attack".
Now, the laser turrets and robots come much later and the turrets start significantly weaker as well, so good luck newer players, I hope you like running around with repair packs and grenades.
I'm pretty sure all of us more "experienced" players will figure out ways to negate the lack of solid fuel, laser turrets and construction robots by changing the order of some researches so it won't impact us all that much, but for newer players this will mean potentially a different wall.
You still need to set up batteries for laser turrets.
Flame turrets are available much earlier, and you can plop them down even before you have a pumpjack placed and powered !
(And looks like flamethrower ammo will be much easier to make too now!)
The very fact that so many "experienced" players seem to completely forget their existence, shows that delaying laser turrets up to blue science is probably a good thing !
What exactly about "Early Access" and "experimental version" don't you understand ?!?_Attila_ wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:36 pmI don't know how many new players will continue to play beyond oil after these changes, but I know that there will be many people who will have lots of their videos, blueprints, tutorials and mods made obsolete.
It is my understanding that old saves will not migrate well, so many people will be playing with the current version, offering no feedback on whatever comes after until they are ready to start a new game.
Such a fundamental change at this stage of development just seems very odd to me.
(P.S.: And it's not like 0.17 hasn't already introduced larger changes than this...)