Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

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PacifyerGrey
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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by PacifyerGrey »

Basic oil processing needed a change but I am not sure this one was best.

I am sure that adding a flare stack with a proper description would be much better.

Flare stack besides burning excess heavy and light oil would also add extra pollution which would actually help players drive towards advanced oil processing while still not being a game stopper.

Flare stack would just burn oil and pollute while not actually requiring power or anything else. Description should say it is designed to burn excess oil products such as light and heavy oil if you have no means to handle them otherwise.

I am good with input blocking reserving water input, but for outputs please see above.

As it is I am not very pleased with chosen solution. We have to think what exactly made the difficulty spike and why people got confused.

I think there are two main reasons for that:
1. There is no clear indication on the state of the machine and the reason behind it being idle such as being output blocked. That is why I can’t play without Bottleneck mod ever.
2. There is no simple way to get rid of heavy and light oil early. Removing output tank is not a proper method and solid fuel also requires to be consumed.

So maybe these two should be properly addressed instead of dumbing system down?

Other changes are very much welcome as always!
Last edited by PacifyerGrey on Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FuryoftheStars
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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Yeah, not sure I like the change to basic oil processing, either. And yeah, as someone else just pointed out, you've basically removed all purpose behind light oil other than solid fuel (or cracking if you're really short on petrol). I was just commenting in a thread the other day that I wish there were more uses for light and heavy oils....

Also, petroleum gas is technically a gas, so using it for the handheld flamethrower ammo doesn't seem intuitive....

EDIT: Made my comment on flamethrowers a little clearer.
Last edited by FuryoftheStars on Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ManaUser
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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by ManaUser »

My only concern with the oil change is that it make could make heavy oil scarce. Although somewhat unusual, there are times when this could be an issue, such when you first start rolling our express (blue) belts. Currently switching one or more refineries back to basic oil processing was an easy solution, but no more.

I guess Coal liquefaction is still an option, but that comes with its own issues.

Here's a random idea that might help address this, as well as another pet peeve I have at the same time: Lubricant is a single-input recipe, and basically feels like an unnecessary extra step to me currently. What if that recipe was changed to include a second ingredient? I'm thinking either light oil, or in light of recent changes, maybe even plastic. This would stretch the heavy oil supply a little further, as well as making that recipe a little more interesting.
Last edited by ManaUser on Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MicFac
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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by MicFac »

RockDeicide wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:10 pm
On the oil change:
  1. The refinery now looks weird with new basic processing, it looks impractically big. It would be better to have 2 refineries: a basic one and advanced one. The former should be small and it should have a flare stack, while an advanced one shouldn't have a flare stack, but otherwise can remain the same as old refinery.
  2. I don't see any changes to the ratios in the advanced oil processing and that means a lot more waste products to deal with when needing lubricant.
I agree that the refinery looks weird with the new basic oil processing, but making a seperate smaller refinery wouldn't be a good idea in my opinion. It would add another machine that you just temporarily make before you get the better upgraded version, and I think we don't need more of those.

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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by Zaflis »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:36 pm
Also, petroleum gas is technically a gas, so using it for flamethrowers doesn't seem intuitive....
You can use crude oil in flamethrowers.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by BlueTemplar »

No, only in flame turrets.
Deadlock989 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:12 pm
Really surprised by the oil change. Feels like a completely bizarre retrograde dumb-down to be honest, coming out of the blue. Fortunately modding it back again won't be much work.
Really? I thought that it was well-known that the biggest wall facing new players was the first time they had to set up oil processing ? (Also the fluidbox mixing touching prevention shehanigans...)
BHakluyt wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:15 pm
Edit: I also don't like the change to the oil recipe. N00bs can read a wiki or look at a YT vid if they really struggle soooo much.
What? No - every time a player has to get out of the game, you've failed as a developer !
Also, one shouldn't require Internet access for singleplayer !

Though, the wiki should *really* be included in the game - if Sid Meier's Brian Reynolds' Alpha Centauri and Civ4 can do it well, why not Factorio ?!

----

Yeah, not having any exclusive use for Light Oil is a bit weird...
Soggs wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:17 pm
1. Keep basic oil processing as it is but make it require sulfur instead of solid fuel.
2. Revert the change and add some basic cracking recipes that do not require water. I would move Advanced Oil Processing to purple science in that case. Also think about making a fluid priority splitter.
3. Change how solid fuel making is communicated. Add a tech for an improved recipe when making it from Light Oil.
Uh, require Sulfur, how?
There's already Coal Liquefaction in Purple Science though...
Last edited by BlueTemplar on Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MicFac
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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by MicFac »

rhynex wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:07 pm
just logged in to say that I hated the oil recipe change. there is no challenge left in oil processing.
Since the changes are just on basic oil processing, I don't think it's too simple. You need Advanced Oil processing for heavy Oil to be able to keep progressing in the game, meaning the challenge just comes a little later on and there is more of a gradual increase in complexity which is great.

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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Zaflis wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:39 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:36 pm
Also, petroleum gas is technically a gas, so using it for flamethrowers doesn't seem intuitive....
You can use crude oil in flamethrowers.
You're thinking of the turrets.

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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by Tekky »

PacifyerGrey wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:35 pm
Basic oil processing needed a change but I am not sure this one was best.

I am sure that adding a flare stack with a proper description would be much better.

Flare stack besides burning excess heavy and light oil would also add extra pollution which would actually help players drive towards advanced oil processing while still not being a game stopper.
I fully agree.

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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by Kyralessa »

Kovarex was convinced by members of the forum to add someway to use the obstacle avoidance mode of the rail planner. Now when planning a rail path, holding CTRL will make it use the obstacle avoidance ghost planning.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Thank you!

This is a great change. Or unchange, if you will.

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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by cantina_fly »

Registered for the forums just so I could comment on this. Against the proposed oil processing changes. I understand that oil is stumbling block for new players, but I think there may be a better way.

What about a recipe that takes crude oil and outputs a plastic bar?

Make it highly inefficient compared to full refining, but it would allow new players to still make SOME progress in other area's of their factory while they work out proper oil processing.

I saw others mention a flare stack. It's already in mods, so adding it to the base game could work. Or allow excess oil products to dump into a nearby water source? Either of these should come with increased pollution and biter aggression.

Oh, and 500+ hours later, best $30 I spent on a game in years! Keep up the good work. :D

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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by agmike »

Tekky wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:48 pm
PacifyerGrey wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:35 pm
Basic oil processing needed a change but I am not sure this one was best.

I am sure that adding a flare stack with a proper description would be much better.

Flare stack besides burning excess heavy and light oil would also add extra pollution which would actually help players drive towards advanced oil processing while still not being a game stopper.
I fully agree.
I don't. Pollution is such a weak incentive. And flare stack has really no precedents in base game. It will also add a cheaty way to make advanced oil build by discarding instead of cracking and controlling. This change moves the time you have to deal with blocking intermediates problem later, to the time when you actually have proper tools to deal with it, instead of just adding more buffers (which is also unprecedented and unnatural).
Last edited by agmike on Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ambaire
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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by Ambaire »

vdreams wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:33 pm
I don't like the oil recipe change. It adds a good difficulty and usage of logic. Please, don't do the recipe change!
Agreed. I also strongly dislike the flamethrower fuel change.
PacifyerGrey wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:35 pm
Basic oil processing needed a change but I am not sure this one was best.

I am sure that adding a flare stack with a proper description would be much better.

Flare stack besides burning excess heavy and light oil would also add extra pollution which would actually help players drive towards advanced oil processing while still not being a game stopper.

Flare stack would just burn oil and pollute while not actually requiring power or anything else. Description should say it is designed to burn excess oil products such as light and heavy oil if you have no means to handle them otherwise.
Agreed.
Last edited by Ambaire on Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MicFac
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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by MicFac »

Soggs wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:17 pm
I will be honest I do not like the change for the basic oil recipe. My biggest gripe is it teaching a bad lesson about how you make solid fuel efficiently. The new oil recipe forces you to make solid fuel from Petroleum until you have researched Advanced Oil Processing.

As it already is a lot of people do not know that Solid Fuel made from Light Oil is more efficient than making it from Heavy Oil or Petroleum. Also with the change to flame thrower ammo, there is not required use of Light Oil in the game any more. People will glance over it and just think well, why even have Light Oil crack everything down.

I can see the reasoning behind making oil simpler (esp after looking at over 500 whitelist tickets for Gridlock) but this change is teaching the wrong lessons.

There are in my opinion a few options to solve the problem:

1. Keep basic oil processing as it is but make it require sulfur instead of solid fuel.
2. Revert the change and add some basic cracking recipes that do not require water. I would move Advanced Oil Processing to purple science in that case. Also think about making a fluid priority splitter.
3. Change how solid fuel making is communicated. Add a tech for an improved recipe when making it from Light Oil.
I don't really understand your first proposition. What do you mean with "make it require sulfur instead of solid fuel"?

I like the other two ideas, they could both be implemented to add more progression to oil processing. However, there would still be a big jump of complexity when you do oil processing for the first time. Removing water as an ingredient for cracking doesn't make the recipe much simpler and you still need to find a way to control what cracking is done at what time.

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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by Yijare »

PacifyerGrey wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:35 pm
Basic oil processing needed a change but I am not sure this one was best.

I am sure that adding a flare stack with a proper description would be much better.

Flare stack besides burning excess heavy and light oil would also add extra pollution which would actually help players drive towards advanced oil processing while still not being a game stopper.

Flare stack would just burn oil and pollute while not actually requiring power or anything else. Description should say it is designed to burn excess oil products such as light and heavy oil if you have no means to handle them otherwise.
I'd second this, but the Flare needs power to start the burning process (the spark to ignite)
Madness? No, just insannity!

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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by Atraps003 »

The dumbing down of basic oil is disappointing.

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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by Quickbowjob »

PacifyerGrey wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:35 pm
Basic oil processing needed a change but I am not sure this one was best.

I am sure that adding a flare stack with a proper description would be much better.

Flare stack besides burning excess heavy and light oil would also add extra pollution which would actually help players drive towards advanced oil processing while still not being a game stopper.

Flare stack would just burn oil and pollute while not actually requiring power or anything else. Description should say it is designed to burn excess oil products such as light and heavy oil if you have no means to handle them otherwise.

I am good with input blocking reserving water input, but for outputs please see above.

As it is I am not very pleased with chosen solution. We have to think what exactly made the difficulty spike and why people got confused.

I think there are two main reasons for that:
1. There is no clear indication on the state of the machine and the reason behind it being idle such as being output blocked. That is why I can’t play without Bottleneck mod ever.
2. There is no simple way to get rid of heavy and light oil early. Removing output tank is not a proper method and solid fuel also requires to be consumed.

So maybe these two should be properly addressed instead of dumbing system down?

Other changes are very much welcome as always!
Agree i need my Flare Stack I've always used the mod, hope something like it can be added to the main game.

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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by daydev »

I'm among those who don't like the change to the basic oil recipe.

First, it seems like barely a recipe anymore, oil comes in, gas comes out. There are recipes like that, but do we want the backbone of the whole oil subsystem to be like that?
Second, it seems kind of backwards, that the basic recipe is actually the one that gives generally the most desired product by itself without complications.
Third, as others pointed out, the refinery looks awfully awkward with most of its connections blocked.

If I were to propose a better way, I say leave the refinery with its two recipes, BUT make your new recipe be the first available and have it work from the chemical plant, so it doesn't look so awkward. Also make it slow and inefficient and very clear that it just a temporary thing to get you going, similar to burner drills. So it would go like this: you unlock oil processing, you get the slow inefficient but simple oil -> petroleum recipe for the chemical plant; then slightly later (still green science) you unlock the refinery and the current basic oil processing with three products; and then finally you unlock the advanced recipe as before.

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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by hardingt »

Really liking these updates. The "simple" recipe is a major relief to me as someone with many hours in the game. I can never quite get the balance right and it always takes me while to get the cracking and storage just right. Almost always in time for me to start making a boat load of rocket fuel the screws everything up again! So this is very helpful for that first refinery.

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Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

Post by nafira »

Quick question, because I don't remember start a new map very frequently, I saw that Gun turret damage research disappeared.
As the wiki is stated it as been archived : https://wiki.factorio.com/Gun_turret_damage_(research)

Question : since which version ? can't find it ...

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