Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

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Deadlock989
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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by Deadlock989 » Sat May 18, 2019 10:36 am

Koekjesfabriek wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 9:31 am
Looks great!

I was looking at the four rotations, and rotating it in my head, thinking "Wait a minute. Somethings wrong here..."
Should have finished reading first, I guess.

It seems like a lot of work, you basically had to design four distinct factories. Did you consider making just two, one horizontal and one vertical? Is it meant to give the player the illusion of control? (I rotate what I want!) I feel a little disillusioned right now, but I'm pretty sure it'll pass. And I'll try not to look scrutinously at other object rotations...
The isometric perspective kind of forces this kind of thing sometimes, especially when pipes are involved. Because of the way the perspective stretches things, something that looks square on the screen is actually 1.41 (√2) times as long in the Y axis - and the tile grid is squared, and pipe connections have to be aligned to that grid. This causes tricky design problems for things that have to rotate, especially if those things are themselves made up of recognisable units (e.g. pipes, tanks) that would look really odd when stretched. I've tried to make new sprites for pipe-connected machines and pulled a lot of hair out. It can actually be less work to make something completely different for a different view than to try and design something that doesn't look terrible when rotated. It's a pain, but it's unavoidable, it's just the maths of isometric perspective.

Just for god's sake don't try and look closely at assemblers and then work out what shape they are in the real world. They are like a three-dimensional slice of a four-dimensional demon's protrusion into our realm from whatever dark nightmare abyss they dwell in.

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by <NO_NAME> » Sat May 18, 2019 11:08 am

It looks like something that would instantly lure all enemies from the map after being turned on. Maximum pollution after 5 seconds.
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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by Agamemnon » Sat May 18, 2019 11:15 am

Looks like M.C.Escher designed that plant.

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by Amarula » Sat May 18, 2019 1:32 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:36 am
Just for god's sake don't try and look closely at assemblers and then work out what shape they are in the real world. They are like a three-dimensional slice of a four-dimensional demon's protrusion into our realm from whatever dark nightmare abyss they dwell in.
This made my day! (Also love the new graphics, they made my day yesterday.)

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by Hyperbar00 » Sat May 18, 2019 2:57 pm

Dammit, this is just absolutely gorgeous !

I wonder, will the smoke be "decorative" like the flames on a refinery, or will the smoke move through the air like the smoke of furnace, boiler, steam engine...?

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by kottalovag » Sat May 18, 2019 6:31 pm

Great to see bugs being fixed, however I am frowning over one thing: you are talking about 1.0 a lot lately. Also about stability. Add fluid system to it and you get a paradox so you have to choose 2 of 3 (stable, 1.0, fluid system). I have thought always of the fluid system rework as a must have before 1.0 but I am getting under the impression it would be there only in a minor version... Any update on this?

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by Unknow0059 » Sat May 18, 2019 7:01 pm

We have to recompose the entity for every rotation. That’s why even rotating the entity 90 degrees the window remains at the front, and the chimney at the back.
B
What do you mean, the chimney remains at the front and the chimney at the back when rotating 90 degrees?

If from the front view the chimney is in the back, and the window in the front, they're always gonna stay in their respective positions when you rotate them, just like it is in this new design. It's just how rotating things work - it makes sense. I don't get why you had to tell us that.

Did you mean to say you had to make sure the design is readable from every rotation?

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by eradicator » Sat May 18, 2019 7:08 pm

Unknow0059 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 7:01 pm
If from the front view the chimney is in the back, and the window in the front, they're always gonna stay in their respective positions when you rotate them, just like it is in this new design. It's just how rotating things work - it makes sense. I don't get why you had to tell us that.
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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by Unknow0059 » Sat May 18, 2019 7:31 pm

eradicator wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 7:08 pm
Unknow0059 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 7:01 pm
If from the front view the chimney is in the back, and the window in the front, they're always gonna stay in their respective positions when you rotate them, just like it is in this new design. It's just how rotating things work - it makes sense. I don't get why you had to tell us that.
I'm really scared right now.
Yeah, i took a closer look. It makes no sense. I'm actually kinda pissed it looks so different from every view.

I hope they make this more consistent by the time it comes out. It's straight up confusing.

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by emlun » Sat May 18, 2019 10:30 pm

I just have to join in saying the new chem plant looks amazing. The stirrer and sloshing liquid is just, mmph, so great! Can't wait to see it in game.

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by bobucles » Sat May 18, 2019 10:56 pm

Just looking at the new chem plant gave me sympathetic lung cancer. :lol: I like the idea of knowing what your factory is building without keeping alt-mode permanently on.

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by catma » Sun May 19, 2019 12:41 am

bobucles wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:56 pm
Just looking at the new chem plant gave me sympathetic lung cancer. :lol: I like the idea of knowing what your factory is building without keeping alt-mode permanently on.
I wouldn't do a joke about cancer, but I can appreciate it when someone else does.

But here is the politically correct version: COUGH I THINK I HAVE BITER NESTS GROWING IN MY LUNGS!!

Wouldn't it be cool if when these chemical things exploded, there would be Zerg creep like organic stuff soon coalescing into a brand new biter nest if left alone 15 minutes?? One wonders how biters form afterall...

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by catma » Sun May 19, 2019 2:31 pm

OK, new idea. With 1.0 you'll probably want to re-do the trailer with all the new HD graphics..... and with the "pollution annoys biters" bit, you totally want the pollution to look several kinds of toxic!!!

I wish I knew how to start a poll, because I want to know how many people think the old pollution smoke is now hopelessly outclassed (at least for trailer-making purposes).

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by YadanHubclan » Mon May 20, 2019 8:53 am

It would be cool if at first you see the tank being filled with the components (15% of the production time), then they are mixed together (75% of production time), then at the end it takes the color of the final product and finally it gets pumped out (last 10% of the time).

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by testasdf » Mon May 20, 2019 1:37 pm

So, many people here like the smoke. But it looks too bad. Modern chemical plants shouldn't be this bad when it is operating normally. I know all it does is to make the pollution alerting, but it looks more like an industrial accident. I would expect explosions follows or the smoke spread to much bigger area. You could ignore dirty wastes by not looking at them, but not dangers.

As personal experience I lived near power plant with slightly yellow smoke (because coal contains sulfur or something) before the regulation improves and they install additional devices for cleaning. And that was not cheap. In real life you can't say something turning the smoke 100% white from 99% white is cheaper than turning 99% white from 50% white. Some most expensive steps even doesn't change the color. It looks very unnatural to me that they did that good for steam engines but that bad for chemical plants in the game. It may also offend some people actually working in a chemical plant.

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon May 20, 2019 1:43 pm

testasdf wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:37 pm
So, many people here like the smoke. But it looks too bad. Modern chemical plants shouldn't be this bad when it is operating normally. I know all it does is to make the pollution alerting, but it looks more like an industrial accident. I would expect explosions follows or the smoke spread to much bigger area. You could ignore dirty wastes by not looking at them, but not dangers.

As personal experience I lived near power plant with slightly yellow smoke (because coal contains sulfur or something) before the regulation improves and they install additional devices for cleaning. And that was not cheap. In real life you can't say something turning the smoke 100% white from 99% white is cheaper than turning 99% white from 50% white. Some most expensive steps even doesn't change the color. It looks very unnatural to me that they did that good for steam engines but that bad for chemical plants in the game. It may also offend some people actually working in a chemical plant.
Yeah, but this is like a cartoon video game.

Jeez.

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by LordWampus » Mon May 20, 2019 4:24 pm

Lubricus wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:57 pm
...the signaling lamp that indicate if it is on or of is way to hard to discern.
Wait... there's a station on/off indicator?

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by Lubricus » Mon May 20, 2019 5:43 pm

LordWampus wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 4:24 pm
Lubricus wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:57 pm
...the signaling lamp that indicate if it is on or of is way to hard to discern.
Wait... there's a station on/off indicator?
it's like a half pixel that is blinking green or red. It's easier to check in map view.

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by catma » Mon May 20, 2019 6:51 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:43 pm
testasdf wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:37 pm
So, many people here like the smoke. But it looks too bad. Modern chemical plants shouldn't be this bad when it is operating normally. I know all it does is to make the pollution alerting, but it looks more like an industrial accident. I would expect explosions follows or the smoke spread to much bigger area. You could ignore dirty wastes by not looking at them, but not dangers.

As personal experience I lived near power plant with slightly yellow smoke (because coal contains sulfur or something) before the regulation improves and they install additional devices for cleaning. And that was not cheap. In real life you can't say something turning the smoke 100% white from 99% white is cheaper than turning 99% white from 50% white. Some most expensive steps even doesn't change the color. It looks very unnatural to me that they did that good for steam engines but that bad for chemical plants in the game. It may also offend some people actually working in a chemical plant.
Yeah, but this is like a cartoon video game.

Jeez.
:lol:

Little examples of video game breaks from reality:
-fish that can heal you ALOT in the middle of combat, and you can eat it without feeling too full for another even after 1000. But also you don't need to eat? You regenerate from near-death and what should be limb amputating levels of damage in a minute or so?
-count how many locomotives you can carry at once in your inventory. (-;
-hand assemble a car in 10 seconds (without assembling any wheel materials)
-defense walls half the height of the player are never jumped by biters
-you can make a rocket without non-machine help before dying of old age --- and in some speedruns, in a few hours.
-the rocket doesn't have an associated launching and orbit calculation cost. You can just crank them out like a factory can make paperclips and not worry where it goes.

So overall? EngineerHammer 40K says: "smog for the smog God!!"
Last edited by catma on Mon May 20, 2019 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #295 - New design for the chemical plant

Post by eradicator » Mon May 20, 2019 7:11 pm

testasdf wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:37 pm
It looks very unnatural to me that they did that good for steam engines but that bad for chemical plants in the game. It may also offend some people actually working in a chemical plant.
Factorio steam engine's only exhaust is leftover steam, which is water. Because the boiler that does the actual fuel-burning doesn't show any exhausts. As for the chem plant...if you're stranded alone on an uninhabited planet and just want to get off the damn rock, why waste precious materials to build *any* filters at all?
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