Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

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MasterBuilder
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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by MasterBuilder » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:16 pm

So for 0.17, the water 'frequency' and 'size' sliders are being replaced with 'scale' and 'coverage', which do the same thing, but in a hopefully more obvious way. Larger scale means larger land features, while more coverage means more of the map covered in water.
"Larger scale means larger land features" still seems like it's the inverse and just as counter-intuitive.
Can this be reversed to a larger water 'scale' means more water? I may still be confused about the wording, but seeing it in a working preview will fix that.
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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by GenBOOM » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:18 pm

by the looks of the map generation preview...
Image
does this mean seasons / weather could be a thing now?

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by Mernom » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:22 pm

Hmm. I'm all for expanding more on the map type mechanic.
You mentioned that you could potentially add the 0.16 like maps as another map type if people want it. I say, why not add it to begin with? Some people are bound to want it, so fix it before it gets broken.

Coming up with even more map types sounds like it could be interesting. I'm assuming that it's open for modding as well?

Lastly, this one is prertty big: you mentioned that blueprints in the blueprint inventory automatically synch with the library. Is there a way to hold blueprints that won't be automatically synched? I mean, is the hotbar a seperate blueprint inv from the 'official' blueprint inv in that regard? (AKA having a blueprint in the hotbar directly won't synch it, but having it in the blueprint inv and then dragging it from there to the hotbar will)

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by GenBOOM » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:24 pm

melind wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:14 pm
- And a kind of dumb suggestion, it would look cool if accumulators would arc electricity to other nearby accumulators.
yeah I assumed thats what the original graphics were trying to do - show that they are connected in a grid.

maybe combining the animations of multiple accumulators into like a large chunk, like a texture pattern, ( idk the word for it sigh ) would also solve the animation stuttering problem?

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by kovarex » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:25 pm

Mernom wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:22 pm
Lastly, this one is prertty big: you mentioned that blueprints in the blueprint inventory automatically synch with the library. Is there a way to hold blueprints that won't be automatically synched? I mean, is the hotbar a seperate blueprint inv from the 'official' blueprint inv in that regard? (AKA having a blueprint in the hotbar directly won't synch it, but having it in the blueprint inv and then dragging it from there to the hotbar will)
Blueprints don't automatically sync. That was one of the possible plans that was discarded. You either link a blueprint from BP library or blueprint from inventory. (And there is an additional bonus, that when you link a blueprint that was exported from library and then remove the blueprint, the game re-links the action bar link to the blueprint library).

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by TOGoS » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:31 pm

Brathahn wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:58 pm
what.PNG

new ores?
I think those are just biter bases.
Raiguard wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:35 pm
EDIT 2: Wait, in the description of the moisture and bias sliders, you say "red-deserty". Does this mean... RED DESERT!?
"Red desert" has actually been with us all along. It's just...not red, because at the time we weren't able to control autoplaced entities and doodads well enough to have a consistent 'red desert' theme. i.e. regular rocks and trees got placed on the red desert tiles and looked out of place. I hope to revisit that at some point, because it's kind of silly to have 2 different biomes that both look like sand. This won't be part of 0.17.0 though.
liwers wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:43 pm
Meow, meow, Kitty want to know, will the new map generator compatible with Resource Spawner Overhaul mod where the preview function in present version is unavailable..?

Meow..!
According to the mod page,
Factorio 0.16.x+ note: RSO doesn't work with map preview - there will be no ores there with RSO active

This mod overrides in-game Perlin noise based resource/units spawning system by region divided spawning system.
So no, not unless the mod author rewrites it to use the built-in autoplace system. Which they may be able to for 0.17, since it sounds like the system they're using is similar to my 'spot noise' one.

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by psihius » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:34 pm

Is it possible to add limited zoom to the map preview? I find that starting area sometimes is just too small, especially if you look for a railworld preset - you kind'a have to go into the game and chart with commands the things to see if it's a good seed.

Thought if new ore gen is much better, the need for it might disappear.

Otherwise - great job :)

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by TOGoS » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:38 pm

MasterBuilder wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:16 pm
So for 0.17, the water 'frequency' and 'size' sliders are being replaced with 'scale' and 'coverage', which do the same thing, but in a hopefully more obvious way. Larger scale means larger land features, while more coverage means more of the map covered in water.
"Larger scale means larger land features" still seems like it's the inverse and just as counter-intuitive.
Can this be reversed to a larger water 'scale' means more water? I may still be confused about the wording, but seeing it in a working preview will fix that.
The tooltip for the Scale column is "Overall scale of features and the space between them", if that makes it any clearer. "Scale" makes everything larger, like inflating a globe balloon. "Coverage" of water increases the water level without moving anything else, so that there's more water but otherwise the world looks about the same.

We felt that "frequency" was confusing because it might sound like you're getting more water with higher frequency, when actually it was just deflating the globe balloon. So you would find more distinct bodies of water per distance walked, but not necessarily more water. Back before I worked on the terrain generator I wasn't sure which way I should move the slider if I wanted bigger features.

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:39 pm

liwers wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:43 pm
Meow, meow, Kitty want to know, will the new map generator compatible with Resource Spawner Overhaul mod where the preview function in present version is unavailable..?

Meow..!
It sounds like that with all these new features we won't even *need* RSO anymore ?
This has the side-effect that if you don't mind editing some JSON, you'll be able to create maps with values outside the range provided by the GUI sliders.
(Well, maybe aside from the infinite ores mod support...)
Mernom wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:22 pm
Hmm. I'm all for expanding more on the map type mechanic.
You mentioned that you could potentially add the 0.16 like maps as another map type if people want it. I say, why not add it to begin with? Some people are bound to want it, so fix it before it gets broken.

Coming up with even more map types sounds like it could be interesting. I'm assuming that it's open for modding as well?
One that was I specifically thinking about was the one similar to Civilization games : where you're always starting next to a body of water, and it's 95% of the time the ocean (or a sea connected to an ocean).

Why not an option like that in Factorio, instead of always starting on a plateau near a lake ?

(Sure, we don't have a lot of interaction with water so far, even across mods, but wouldn't it be nice to have in the future ? And seems more realistic to achieve that some kind of "space expansion" on a different surface...)

Especially since IIRC the resource placement in 0.17 was changed so that we don't have anymore ore patches being "swallowed" by water !
Last edited by BlueTemplar on Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by orzelek » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:43 pm

TOGoS wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:31 pm
Brathahn wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:58 pm
what.PNG

new ores?
I think those are just biter bases.
Raiguard wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:35 pm
EDIT 2: Wait, in the description of the moisture and bias sliders, you say "red-deserty". Does this mean... RED DESERT!?
"Red desert" has actually been with us all along. It's just...not red, because at the time we weren't able to control autoplaced entities and doodads well enough to have a consistent 'red desert' theme. i.e. regular rocks and trees got placed on the red desert tiles and looked out of place. I hope to revisit that at some point, because it's kind of silly to have 2 different biomes that both look like sand. This won't be part of 0.17.0 though.
liwers wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:43 pm
Meow, meow, Kitty want to know, will the new map generator compatible with Resource Spawner Overhaul mod where the preview function in present version is unavailable..?

Meow..!
According to the mod page,
Factorio 0.16.x+ note: RSO doesn't work with map preview - there will be no ores there with RSO active

This mod overrides in-game Perlin noise based resource/units spawning system by region divided spawning system.
So no, not unless the mod author rewrites it to use the built-in autoplace system. Which they may be able to for 0.17, since it sounds like the system they're using is similar to my 'spot noise' one.
TL;DR
I don't see it.


I don't know how to do what RSO does in form of a noise. Main difference seems to be that all the noise generation is per ore while RSO works per region. This is pretty fundamental difference that might not be doable with any kind of noise system. And I'm not sure how ore/water + ore/ore collision would be done with noise in a way that doesn't also affect overall ore distribution.

Only way that RSO would be done on preview would be if I would ask for code access and add second way of map gen that would use method similar to one employed by RSO currently. And it would need to get approved of course :D

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by Ghoulish » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:44 pm

A couple of questions for the powers that be;

Will there be mod integration with the terrain selection screen, for example, if I use RSO will altering settings within the mod show relative changes - the preview screen.

what about the power information screen? So much awesome changes to the gui incoming, but no update on that screen :( I really do hope one of you has been showing some love here, it really is an unintuitive screen, it should for example have specific values for power output and consumption.

Spidertron? (begs!)

ETA 10 days, can't wait :)
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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:46 pm

Rebmes wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:09 pm
To be honest, as I put this together, most of it sounds like gibberish, no offense; descriptors like "Coverage" and "Bias" don't mean anything to me. I'd be more comfortable with "Frequency" and "Size" that you had before, and it could be applied to everything on this list (even cliffs), which would look much neater.

I get that you're trying to give the player more options here, but it has to be approachable, it has to make sense.
The issue was that "frequency" was picked from the technical term in the noise generator,
which had pretty much the opposite effect compared to what most people would expect :
http://db48x.net/factorio-terrain/

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by micromario » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:51 pm

The squares under the inventory slots don't... please me

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by FatMcK » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:53 pm

Titanium smelting?

In the pictures of the blueprint libraries are several blueprints called "Titanium smelting". Could this be a hint for a new resource for 1.17? :?:

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by TOGoS » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:54 pm

GenBOOM wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:18 pm
does this mean seasons / weather could be a thing now?
This is all done once at generation time (and isn't as quick as my animations make it look), so doesn't do anything to make tiles change dynamically during a game.

orzelek wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:43 pm
TOGoS wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:31 pm

According to the mod page,
Factorio 0.16.x+ note: RSO doesn't work with map preview - there will be no ores there with RSO active

This mod overrides in-game Perlin noise based resource/units spawning system by region divided spawning system.
So no, not unless the mod author rewrites it to use the built-in autoplace system. Which they may be able to for 0.17, since it sounds like the system they're using is similar to my 'spot noise' one.
TL;DR
I don't see it.

I don't know how to do what RSO does in form of a noise. Main difference seems to be that all the noise generation is per ore while RSO works per region. This is pretty fundamental difference that might not be doable with any kind of noise system. And I'm not sure how ore/water + ore/ore collision would be done with noise in a way that doesn't also affect overall ore distribution.

Only way that RSO would be done on preview would be if I would ask for code access and add second way of map gen that would use method similar to one employed by RSO currently. And it would need to get approved of course :D
The way spot noise (which is a new noise function that will be available in 0.17) works is that it divides the world into regions, and picks several points in each region to be the center of different ore patches. The 'noise function' queries this list, and decides how much ore gets placed on any given tile based on the distance from any of those points. More was written about it in https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-258

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by Mr. Tact » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:56 pm

FatMcK wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:53 pm
Titanium smelting?

In the pictures of the blueprint libraries are several blueprints called "Titanium smelting". Could this be a hint for a new resource for 1.17? :?:
I assume it is just from a game with Bob's...
Professional Curmudgeon since 1988.

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by Trebor » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:00 pm

Can/should humidity be related to water location?

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by TOGoS » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:02 pm

Trebor wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:00 pm
Can/should humidity be related to water location?
I tried correlating it with elevation. The result was meh. :P

Having the different variables be uncorrelated makes the generator easier to understand and results in more different combinations of properties.

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by burninghey » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:04 pm

Islands Oo Ships?

Nice work team!

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Re: Friday Facts #282 - 0.17 in sight

Post by [DegC]RubenGass » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:05 pm

This whole update seems absolutely amazing, I'd just wish that the island starting option would still generate other landmasses outside of the island. I currently often struggle where I want biters to exist, but not to interrupt my operations until I'm ready for it. The 'old' peaceful mode was a nice way to aggro the biters when you were ready for them but the new per-nest aggro system makes that impossible.

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