Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

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thriem
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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by thriem » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:00 am

I barely got into the Wave-Defense - If I recall right, you have to defend a given structure and build your factory around it - with main concern about the defence. You still have to produce everything - but have less harsh starting condition.

What I expected:... a more classy version of this mode. Like cliffs forming a path for the biters, limited building slots, upgrade-ability.
So, in factorio terms: Free turret construction, no need to craft bullets from materials, earning points to upgrade individual towers (like Ammo>piercing>radio ammo) or unlock new tech (flamethrowers), maybe some electric poles for laser turrets (for the factorio-touch and to stand out. After an hour, the game is either lost or maxed out and just a matter of time when it's lost.

My thoughts about current Tower Defense discussion
Things I "need" to give the current way of Tower Defense a serious try:
  1. Parameters
    1. biters attack objective only
    2. production cost
    3. intervals
    4. tech-state
    5. map properties (if random generated - or select pre-built map)
  2. Short game times
This means I would rather prefer a more classic way of Tower-Defense, like I stated at the "What I expected" section - more focus on building and upgrading, less on mining and keep the factory running - if at all. There would be a lot of ways, to approach this game mode - with all kind of hybrids and compromises, so it is hard to give an actual feedback.
  • The way it is now
    • ... -just- a common game with more aggressive biters and not 200k circuits/min in mind
  • Classy version
    • A lot more work and balancing issues - adding game-mechanics and way more effort
Facit: I'd say, to remove it from the vanilla version - at least for now - and let the community do the mod-packs and testing, what they do and want to see - what prove to be popular. And maybe embrace certain mods / modes (like you did with the Upgrader-Mod - and other) to provide a "standard" experience, from where you might go on modding.
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Rebmes
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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by Rebmes » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:45 am

I have not played wave defense; I wasn't aware of its existence. Sounds fun though! I feel like it might not need replay value; a good playthrough and I'd likely be ready to return to survival mode ^^

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Light
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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by Light » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:03 am

Honestly, I'd rather see 0.17 released ASAP with the UI continuously worked on while it's experimental. While it seems there's a lot of work to be done with it, there's also a lot of mod work to be done as well.

The longer we wait for release, the longer it also takes for mod developers to update their code to a playable state as well. This further increases the wait on everyone who uses mods when it shouldn't be necessary to wait over UI updates that can be added over time. As an experimental build there will be updates and changes made anyway, so there's little need to wait until it's 100% finished to throw it out there.

I've got a lot of patience, but I fear that mod developers may move on due to this lengthy wait as some of the great mods won't be updated for several weeks or even months AFTER 0.17's release if they're even around anymore due to loss of interest.

This already happened with some good mods not supported for 0.16, as some devs lost interest and quit Factorio before they could update them to the next build. Further delays of 0.17 only increase the chances of this being a problem yet again, and I'm becoming increasingly concerned that some favourites may be abandoned because of it. Not to mention when 0.17 does become stable, players can download their favourite mods and get back into the game right away instead of tapping their foot.

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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by 5thHorseman » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:36 am

Regarding Tower Defense, I hate them in general and Biters are my least favorite part of the game so ... no I haven't played it and probably never will.

Regarding when to release, release it when you're ready. January, February, Spring, Summer. I don't really care so long as it's polished when it drops.

Same goes for modders. If you're not ready to upgrade when .17 hits don't sweat it. You make the stuff for you and give it to us for free so don't feel pressured to get something out quickly. And if it's too much work, don't do it at all! This is a game, and all of your interactions with it should be - above all else - enjoyable.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by fur_and_whiskers » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:51 am

I'm really looking forward to 0.17 and although a little disappointed it may not make it this month, I trust the devs and prepared to wait as long as it takes. Enjoying continuing to play on my current save, I'm learning so much and just keeping in mind the upcoming changes.

Great work Wube! Thank you for making the extra effort to put out an update every week and responding to posts in a thoughtful manner. Really looking forward to 0.17.

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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by Sente » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:59 am

Yes to procedural wave defense! I stopped playing wave defense because it was too static.

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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by facade11663 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:14 am

"We will probably push the high-res icons to 0.17 during the experimental phase."
is that an implication to opt in beta or just another way of saying your still holding back more for later?

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Nova
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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by Nova » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:33 am

They will release 0.17.0 without high-res icons because they have more important stuff to do and don't want to push the release even further back. Some time after 0.17.0 these icons will be released, probably together with bugfixes in 0.17.x
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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by exi2163 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:17 am

factoriouzr wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:40 pm
...

I agree. I have made similar points recently as well (before the holidays). I said that it's been a year or so before the last update of any new features and asked that they release before the holidays (I think I posted around November).

Some of my points:
+over a month to test internally and fix critical issues if they just stopped adding new features for the next release at that time
+nobody needed to work over the holidays, just fix what critical things they find and if there are bugs, we, the players can wait till the new year
+the developers promised more frequent updates over a year or so ago and the updates are are still over a year apart as of now
+I think it would be better to release more frequently with less changes in each release and keep developing on different branches internally so the work doesn't slow down
I completely disagree. You make a roadmap for a reason because you want to be able to have an overview of whats going to be in, what work needs to be done and how long that is going to take. My guess is that the never communicated internal soft deadline was start of december.
If you start replacing big librarys stuff will break left and right and might open stuff you now additionally have to fix. Once you know that you might not hit the deadline there is no reason to rush, you have to push the release back or it will bite you in the ass. This is something that non-developers might not understand.

A fair comparison might be to give your car to a mechanic to install a new radio and a new motor (more power, "Arrrrr"). During installment the mechanic notices that the motor mounts dont match and the internal holding structure shows heavy rust. Thats something that has to be fixed, you can put the motor in but it will break. While you already could enjoy the new radio you would not be able to drive anywhere.

With software you dont deliver one car. You hit the button and you deliver 10.000, 20.000, 100.000 units.
Now imagine 100.000 customers phoning you because their car broke down. Workes who answer the phone will not be able to assist the mechanics to actually fix the cars (in small companys they might actually be the mechanic). This will slow things down considerably.
There is no reason to give out a known-faulty product.

Frequent small updates are not the solution to everything. SCRUM is a PITA if you have a product that is not right for that or you need changes that are just too big for a SCRUM. Just look at Microsoft, they are trying hard to go from a 2-4 years cycle to 6 months and they currently mess it up every time.

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Oktokolo
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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by Oktokolo » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:00 am

I like, that the team found a development cycle suited for UI with mockups, documentation, polishing stages... Whatever the UI looks and feels like - looks and feel better be consistent over the whole application. So take your time, don't release before its done.

Not releasing this month is fine.
I am totally hyped for 0.17 too. But i know, that we all get a better product when not rushing it.

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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by H8UL » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:19 am

Lots of discussion around release processes going on here.

The very fact that there is a 0.17, and that they split out a 0.18 from 0.17, and that the icons will be after the 0.17 goes GA, is all because the devs already do review, reflect upon, and adapt their release process. And indeed their entire development process for that matter. That much can also be seen from the introspective tone of many of the FFFs.

It's interesting but I don't think we can do a better job of reflecting upon their own processes. We can note that we want certain features sooner but not tell them how to work efficiently. Let's not be guilty of "devsplaining" :lol:
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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by DerGraue » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:41 am

Dear devs,
whatever you do, do not feel yourself obligated to rush and release in January.
If some stuff that you deem important is not finished, then so be it.

I'd rather like to play a better game than an earlier but more broken release.

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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by BlindRyan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:12 pm

As a legally blind gamer who, until last month, campaigned for exactly this kind of UI work (I have many conditions, some of which have rendered me unable to continue making videos and streaming,) I am absolutely willing to wait for the new UI to be perfect.

The one you've got now is serviceable. The one you're promising looks phenomenal.

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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by Silden » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:00 pm

Procedural Wave defense: have you considered having a bespoke map for the first play and completion of the scenario, and then a procedural map once the player has solved it befpre?

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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by Zavian » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:15 pm

Not sure how much of this is already possible, but have you considered adding support for generating a new procedural map in the editor, manually tweaking it, then saving it as wave defence scenario map, and then sharing it, perhaps as a special category of mod? That is probably less work to implement than tuning the procedural generator to generate interesting and varied wave defence maps.

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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by Avezo » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:13 pm

Wave defense could benefit from typical tower-defense games more with:
- Infinite research for wall hitpoints
- Infinite research for shooting speed (infinite research for damage is actually bad - it becomes wasted once 1 shoot = 1 kill, no matter how high damage is)
- Rocket turrets with retargeting ability

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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by H8UL » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:53 pm

Avezo wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:13 pm
- Infinite research for wall hitpoints
A new more general technology modifier "entity-health-bonus" would be AMAZING! Just think of all the mod possibilities for combat robots or units...
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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by Avezo » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:53 pm

H8UL wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:53 pm
Avezo wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:13 pm
- Infinite research for wall hitpoints
A new more general technology modifier "entity-health-bonus" would be AMAZING! Just think of all the mod possibilities for combat robots or units...
That sounds very fitting as for an infinite research. Personally I never thought of a general hit point increase, but still I think it should be implemented!

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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by ske » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:02 pm

DerGraue wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:41 am
Dear devs,
whatever you do, do not feel yourself obligated to rush and release in January.
January of what year? Trust me, it won't be January of 2019. It also won't be December shortly before Christmas. Middle of Summer before vacation time is also not so good.

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Re: Friday Facts #277 - GUI progress update

Post by bobucles » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:39 pm

- Infinite research for wall hitpoints
Be careful because repair rate is finite and lots of HP will chew through repair packs. Might want to include a repair bonus at the same time.

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