Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

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featherwinglove
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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by featherwinglove » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:14 am

V453000 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:08 am
featherwinglove wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:30 am
...
Are you referring to the catastrophe following FFF#266? I don't like anything in that one, but IMHO, the removal of AM ingredient limits is by far the least offensive of the announced changes. Wube's behaviour following it actually has me warning my friends off this game (that included not updating the roadmap thread for three months and then deleting my post when I did. And that's not the only part of it that is Blizzcon 2018 level bullshit.)
I'm sorry but that's a massive overreactiion.
Regardless of what you think, responding like this is an indicator of the problem. Even now, you are brushing off players' concerns in exactly the way we're complaining about. That is not going to help matters at all, it only adds irony to the fire.

You guys have to realize that Blizzcon 2018 was not the moment Blizzard lost touch with its audience, it was the moment that let the world know that it already had. Here, we are not observing Wube actually being so disconnected with its audience, we are observing the process that leads to it: a sickness that I would like to see treated and cured before it is too late.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by FasterJump » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:30 am

J-H wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:27 pm
Speaking of...can we get a way to prevent construction robots from deploying and chasing moving vehicles? They just get left behind and die every time the car hits a tree, the train gets a random hit from a biter, etc... wasted resources and annoying notifications.
This
I always make sure i don't carry repair packs because of that. And if I have to craft one to repair a turret (why wasting it on walls?), I purposely damage my car to make sure the repair pack is consumed.
This is ridiculous. Please prevent bot from repairing moving entities!

By the way, all of those recipe changes will make many current factories obsoletes. RIP my precious.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by RockDeicide » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:31 am

featherwinglove, quit acting like you represent entire audience, I'm a part of the latter, but, as far as I am concerned, Wube only improved the connection between the game and me. For me, there were no problematic changes FFF#266 whatsoever as they all go well with my play-style that still uses a number of mods. Devs have to make the game for everyone, not just you.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by V453000 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:49 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:14 am
V453000 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:08 am
featherwinglove wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:30 am
...
Are you referring to the catastrophe following FFF#266? I don't like anything in that one, but IMHO, the removal of AM ingredient limits is by far the least offensive of the announced changes. Wube's behaviour following it actually has me warning my friends off this game (that included not updating the roadmap thread for three months and then deleting my post when I did. And that's not the only part of it that is Blizzcon 2018 level bullshit.)
I'm sorry but that's a massive overreactiion.
Regardless of what you think, responding like this is an indicator of the problem. Even now, you are brushing off players' concerns in exactly the way we're complaining about. That is not going to help matters at all, it only adds irony to the fire.

You guys have to realize that Blizzcon 2018 was not the moment Blizzard lost touch with its audience, it was the moment that let the world know that it already had. Here, we are not observing Wube actually being so disconnected with its audience, we are observing the process that leads to it: a sickness that I would like to see treated and cured before it is too late.
So in short you say that if our decision is not in line with your personal opinion, then it means that we are detached from our community? Just read the FFFs and how much in them is reacting to problems we hear from you - the community, see the discussions under them and see how many of us are involved.

You haven't even gotten the update yet so who knows how some things will really turn out. The FFFs are meant to be a dev blog for the most part, not always a promise-blog. That means things can, and often do change, until the actual release.

Please stop accusing us of awful things because of minor disagreements.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Avezo » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:27 am

Here are my counterproposals to recipe changes:

Red science
- no changes, maybe, maaaaybe replace copper plate with 2x copper cables, to show new players from the start that putting everything on the belt is a bad idea and to promote direct insertion
Green science
- no changes
Gray science
- 1x Normal ammo (need for steel for piercing ammo this early in the game is too much I think)
- 1x Submachine gun (or pistol hehe, I just like idea of using weapons in military science packs)
- 1x Grenade (this actually helps tremendously with clearing trees)
Blue science - proposed FFF changes make it even harder to step into, so mine make it much easier (keep long craft time though, so ingredients count can be higher too)
- 20x Petroleum gas (clearer indication to use multiple refineries from the start, unlike red circuits were)
- 5x Pipe (it's supposed to be 'chemical' science pack after all)
- 5x Empty barrel (that also gives us a way to get rid of excess barrels we might have)
Purple science
- 1x Productivity module (I actually like to have 'productivity' module in 'production' science pack)
- 20x Lubricant (it being supplied will encourage setting up blue belt and el. engines production for smoother further expansion of the factory)
- 1x Red circuit
Yellow science
- 1x Flying robot frame (this will already eat lot of acid for batteries, no need for blue circuits in the recipe)
- 30x Concrete (concrete is, after all, an 'utility' item, plus it will be a stone sink)
- 3x LDS
White science
- If you are going with victory without satellite (not that I like it), consider getting rid of it altogether and letting option open for mods.

As for craft times and amount produced per cycle I'm not that bothered, balance them around.
Last edited by Avezo on Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:22 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Mike5000 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:33 am

V453000 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:49 am
Please stop accusing us of awful things because of minor disagreements.
That's 27 pages of "minor disagreement" which only wound down when it became clear that Wube couldn't care less.
Last edited by Mike5000 on Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by jodokus31 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:35 am

V453000 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:22 am
I'd love to reply to all of you, hopefully I will find time and energy for it later, but just to clarify one very wrong thing:

The personal roboport in yellow tier you are refering to is Personal roboport mk2. Personal roboport mk1 is on blue science.
Thanks for clarifying this :) I was misleaded by:

"Utility science pack alone now unlocks:
...
Personal roboport, Power armor Mk2, Fusion reactor - More utility/personal equipment for combat, construction and faster movement.
"
but I missed the new icon with the "2" in it

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by 0111narwhalz » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:41 am

Genuinely amazed nobody's done this yet.
Image

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by ske » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:52 am

Very good writeup. Thanks for this FFF.

I particularly like the unification of the many military upgrades and introducing optional technology paths with the military.

Having multiple ways to do things (the easy way, the fast way, the efficient way) is something that makes choice a thing. Right now for most things there is only one optimal way to fabricate them. I would like to have a combination of inefficient but easy-to-build setups and more efficient but more complicated setups. This would make the technology required for the complicated setup optional but it would still make sense to research it once that part becomes a bottleneck. The inefficient setups could still be useful to manufacture low-frequency items.

In a way the assembly machine tiers 1 2 3 are an example of this but I think they are implemented wrongly because the higher tiers are simply drop-in-replacements for the lower tiers. In the past i had suggested for them to have different shapes/sizes so they are not simply drop-in-replacements and the lower tiers still make sense to build at certain places. (Level 1 should be burner powered, too.)

The module system is something that (for a reason not really known to me) I hate with a passion. Probably because they are too generic "magic" and then those beacon things with their aura fields. Please replace modules with new (specialized) assembly machines. They don't really make much sense beyond being a huge ressource sink. Beacons could be replaced by a high power motor building that is connected to an assembly machine. That would make more sense than a magic aura? You have the resources to make ten new assembly machines that can manufacture some specific items very efficiently. E.g. an assembly machine that has one direct belt input/output connection where it can efficiently receive some items. Or a big furnace that processes 1000 ore at one time.

The idea with 2+2+30 items in a recipe sounds quite good to me because you combine low and high throughput which in itself is makes for a puzzle.

So in summary I think you are moving in the right direction and I'm curious to learn about how the campaign turns out.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by ske » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:57 am

Mike5000 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:33 am
V453000 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:49 am
Please stop accusing us of awful things because of minor disagreements.
That's 27 pages of "minor disagreement" which only wound down when it became clear that Wube couldn't care less.
Whatever direction you go there will always be people disagreeing. Ultimately it's their game. Did you buy a copy? You probably already got 10x the fun out of it if you compare to other games for the same price. It's ok. Even if 1.0 never happens or happens badly it already was worth it.

For me, I would like to see a factorio 2.0 that is freshly rebuilt around a campaign that makes sense - but that won't happen before 1.0 is out. So, only minor and cosmetic changes for now. But still, people will complain. Have bots in the game? Complain! Take bots out? Complain. Do nothing? Complain. :lol:

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Minbaru » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:03 am

SuperSandro2000 wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:42 pm

to be honest that not very much. After a bit of thinking I need to agree with him and would change it to maybe 12 rails or so.
Yeah I have to agree with that. 30 is IMHO too much, make it 10 or 12.

Regarding the copper wire for high tech science pack to be honest I would drop that a bit too, to something like 15 or 20.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Minbaru » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:21 am

I am always amazed at how fast a productive and constructive forum post will end up into a negative read. It's one of the reasons I usually dont read forums (plus I just prefer mailing lists but that's just old me).

I will congratulate Wube on trying to be so transparent to the users and to listen to the users whenever they can. But we have to realize that at the end of the day it is their game, their company and their bottom line they have to consider. When they started this game they had a goal, a vision. And I have the feeling they will adapt and change the vision wherever possible when it does not conflict with what they set out to do.

Hammering them and getting into these kinds of negative threads is IMHO not very constructive.

Remember we bought the game, not the company or the team or the roadmap.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Avezo » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:25 am

0111narwhalz wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:41 am
Genuinely amazed nobody's done this yet.
Image
IMA FIRIN MAH LAZOR!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dERZjJ9anbc

Oh, someone please photoshop shoop da whoop face to that first picture with biter to accommodate for new lazerface personal defense :D

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Ferlonas » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:26 pm

Minbaru wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:21 am
I am always amazed at how fast a productive and constructive forum post will end up into a negative read. It's one of the reasons I usually dont read forums (plus I just prefer mailing lists but that's just old me).

I will congratulate Wube on trying to be so transparent to the users and to listen to the users whenever they can. But we have to realize that at the end of the day it is their game, their company and their bottom line they have to consider. When they started this game they had a goal, a vision. And I have the feeling they will adapt and change the vision wherever possible when it does not conflict with what they set out to do.

Hammering them and getting into these kinds of negative threads is IMHO not very constructive.

Remember we bought the game, not the company or the team or the roadmap.
Ok, I'm getting out of read-only-mode, hopefully for one last time, because this is just OT.
There are few posts in this thread that are hammering on anyone or just purely negative. The majority of posts are reasonable discussion, with various over- and undertones, as is to be expected in a passionate discussion. Personally, I am a bit miffed at how V453000 responded to some of the posts, not even attempting a discussion but just basically trying to shut them down with one sentence. It's as if I had responded to your post by only saying "You're reading that wrong."
That is not very constructive, and it encourages further negativity. Discussions in a forum are similar - albeit more delicate due to the medium - to arguments in real life. If you don't take a step back to analyse the other person's points and at least make an effort to respond in a factual manner, you risk the argument escalating to an emotional level that you can't recover from. And just abandoning it there will keep the negative emotions for the next time something comes up (see the way FFF 266 transferred into this one)

Yes, what I'm saying here is "If you feel insulted, take a step back and try to find the message beyond the insult, then try to respond to that in a logical manner instead of getting your revenge". I know that feels like turning the other cheek, but it is a good way to save a discussion even from the heated depths of emotional hell.

Regards
Ferlonas

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by rhynex » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:30 pm

I liked all of the recipe changes although they are very simple now, except purple science.

I look at the recipe from possible manufacturing design setups. blue/black/yellow are too easy now. they require 3 ingredients and 2 belts (even yellow) can provide these items easily. player does not need to design fancy setups because belts can deliver everything easily. the count of the ingredients are very low. on the other hand purple became a "logistic" nightmare because of the 30 rail. current recipe of rocket silo requires 1000 purple science and for that specific recipe we are supposed to 10000 (10k) rail just for rocket silo research? I need to look at people's game finish bases, I doubt if they have 10k rail put on map already. current coal liquefaction requires 200 purple = 2000 rail. I would put 2k rail on map to ride to west so I can find more oil than research for coal actually. 2k rail is 4k tile right? that distance is huge and chance of finding oil is higher than what coal liquefaction provides I believe.
of course productivity modules may reduce the number but still that amount is huge. I would not mind if the ingredient was an intermediate product. direct insert rail to purple also would not work easily because of three ingredient requirements of rail (steel, stone, pipe). current yellow science required copper cable (made out of only copper) but purple science (one level below it) became more complex than that from logistic perspective.

time required for the sciences 5-6-12-5-7-7 is a weird value still. you change almost all of the recipes but keep that weird number sequence?

I cannot think from the newbie/casual player perspective, I play at megabase level in expensive mode. yellow science or electric engine is too easy for me. but 10rail per purple science could be too much from other players' perspective. I am very sure new players shall try to use belts to transfer rail to purple science or go with bots depending on logistic network's tech requirements. one possible outcome shall be everyone shall rush to logistic network just like people rush to advanced oil processing.

I would put barrels in blue science if it becomes "chemical" now. why it is not in the recipe? no idea.

final note, no one at Wube likes uranium. it seems like regular players shall not even use that shiny green thing. I even remember from a former FFF that uranium will not shine anymore.

still no problem. thanks for the update.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Avezo » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:54 pm

rhynex wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:30 pm
blue/black/yellow are too easy now. they require 3 ingredients and 2 belts (even yellow) can provide these items easily. player does not need to design fancy setups because belts can deliver everything easily. the count of the ingredients are very low.
I have to disagree about blue science part. While science pack itself might seem a bit easier without miners, now you have to set up even more oil processing to get solid fuel for it. The problem with blue science pack was never about science pack recipe itself, it was setting up oil processing and having to suddenly jump into complex (compared to previous recipes) red circuit production that ontop of it included a lot of piping. And as if oil processing alone weren't problematic enough in an early game, oil fields are outside the starting zone for a while now.

It's oil processing that was (and still will be under proposed changes) a problem with huge step from green to blue science pack, not the recipe itself.

I believe that, if it's supposed to be 'chemical' science pack, it (generally) should come BEFORE setting up oil processing and THEN unlock new oil processing recipes as player sets up chemical production chains. This science pack is a great place to have pipes, barrels and somesuch used as ingredients. Or maybe make crude oil an ingredient? That would set up a great landscape to build up entire 'chemical' part of the base - all ingredients would have to be already supplied nearby.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by rhynex » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:41 pm

Avezo wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:54 pm
rhynex wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:30 pm
blue/black/yellow are too easy now. they require 3 ingredients and 2 belts (even yellow) can provide these items easily. player does not need to design fancy setups because belts can deliver everything easily. the count of the ingredients are very low.
I have to disagree about blue science part. While science pack itself might seem a bit easier without miners, now you have to set up even more oil processing to get solid fuel for it. The problem with blue science pack was never about science pack recipe itself, it was setting up oil processing and having to suddenly jump into complex (compared to previous recipes) red circuit production that ontop of it included a lot of piping. And as if oil processing alone weren't problematic enough in an early game, oil fields are outside the starting zone for a while now.

It's oil processing that was (and still will be under proposed changes) a problem with huge step from green to blue science pack, not the recipe itself.

I believe that, if it's supposed to be 'chemical' science pack, it (generally) should come BEFORE setting up oil processing and THEN unlock new oil processing recipes as player sets up chemical production chains. This science pack is a great place to have pipes, barrels and somesuch used as ingredients. Or maybe make crude oil an ingredient? That would set up a great landscape to build up entire 'chemical' part of the base - all ingredients would have to be already supplied nearby.
about its name I think just the opposite. basic oil processing is unlocked with red+green sciences and it is the entry point. blue science recipes should unlock new recipes that require oil products so chemical science fits it.
new recipes unlocked with blue science must include oil stuff (plastic, sulfur, lubricant etc...) in it or should not require blue science if new recipe does not have oil stuff in it. with same perspective it is meaningless for sulfur tech to be unlockable with red+green. I would prefer sulfur tech to be unlocked with red+green+blue actually but that is my opinion.
If in 0.17 sulfur tech is unlocked with red+green then I would say the name "chemical" for blue science does not fit it. there are tons of recipes that does not require blue science but require oil stuff in it. you can research fluid handling with red science even which unlocks barrels with various fluid types.

oil processing is a really big phase as you mentioned but from my own perspective recipes are easy now. I do not like purple only because of its logistic challenge compared to others.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by NelsonSKA » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:09 pm

It's a shame, I had liked the idea of ​​the escape pod ... at least the rocket + satellite, it sounded reasonable. The idea of ​​putting something in the rocket opens a new (and simple) mechanics in the later game.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Serenity » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:14 pm

I downloaded a mod with the new crafting recipes and updated my builds

Purple science is basically what Yellow Science was before. You can insert from one rail assembler into two science assemblers and in turn use one iron stick assembler for two rail assemblers. That makes for a nice build. However you need 14 science assemblers for 1.5/s. So that makes the build slightly asymmetrical (3 * 4 and then half a unit again).
Maybe you are locked into certain ways with the direction insertion, but it does look nice

Yellow science has a nice complexity with the ingredients. Green circuits, batteries, iron, steel, blue circuits, low density structures. However the build is extremely simple. I just re-purposed my robot line. Direct insertion from engines into electrical engines since they have the same crafting time. Robot frames need 20 seconds and science needs 21. So you can also just direct insert those

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by rodferrrr » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:19 pm

- 1x Submachine gun (or pistol hehe, I just like idea of using weapons in military science packs)
I agree with that. I understand the reason for using walls, but weapons just makes more sense ;)

Also I think it would be a good idea to include uranium in hightech SP, somehow. probably it will incentive players to use it. We have a great potential here.

About the rocket launch.. I understand the idea in launching a empty rocket before put the sat into it. Cause you just need to test your tech before use it, right? ;) BUT, I think ` for the victory condition` you must have launch a second rocket WITH SAT.
Maybe a third one with the player inside, but it`s just a thought :D
1st launch - Test!
2nd launch - Sat for communication!
3th launch - Goodbye Planet! :mrgreen:

This way you can have a little bit more gameplay experience than just one rocket.. But of course, I understand the emotional thing behind the first launch.. And NO, I didn`t forget the sat in my first victory! :lol:

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