Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

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KoblerMan
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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by KoblerMan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:26 pm

I have to say, I really enjoyed watching the "Diggy" scenario. It reminds me a lot of Dwarf Fortress; I'm just imagining the real-estate potential of having something like that implemented in the game, and having a multilayered base with connected defenses and power grids.

Think of underground biter nests; they would be like ants, sending diggers out and bumping into players, then finding your base and planning an assault -- they could even carve their way to your base through earth that hasn't been moved yet. To map the terrain underground, you couldn't just use a regular radar, either. You would need something like a seismic vibration detector to pick up movement and track them to their base.

Now all I want to do is make Dwarf Fortress in Factorio. :D
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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by TRUEpicness » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:28 pm

Amarula wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:21 pm
Albert, Ernestas wrote: the Factorio planet
Hctib wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:11 pm
on Biter's planet.
Hmm I think the Factorio planet needs a proper name: Factorium? Factination? Factinogo?
None of these seem quite right, I'll be interested to see what creative ideas the community generates :D
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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by Drury » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:31 pm

Gebus wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:16 pm
No one is going to feel bad for slaughtering biters after the first few waves, no matter how you dress them up. Graphical improvements are great, but not as good as functional improvements.
Well it's a good thing then that Wube has a dedicated graphics department so they can do both functional and aesthetic improvements at the same time.
TRUEpicness wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:28 pm
Amarula wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:21 pm
Albert, Ernestas wrote: the Factorio planet
Hctib wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:11 pm
on Biter's planet.
Hmm I think the Factorio planet needs a proper name: Factorium? Factination? Factinogo?
None of these seem quite right, I'll be interested to see what creative ideas the community generates :D
Factoria?
what about something traditional

like Earth
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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by mexmer » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:33 pm

now with more insects, we need starship troopers, and nukes ... wait we do have that one already :)

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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by MeduSalem » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:40 pm

Cute you say?

Even more of a reason to torch them

They are just a bunch of virtual game characters... and most players probably do a lot more horrible things to other game characters in other games.

So I agree with others... after the first few waves of the new biters it is going to be all the same as it ever was.
Last edited by MeduSalem on Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by KoblerMan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:43 pm

Reika wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:16 pm
Well, I think this marks the first FFF where I read it and thought "I guess I will be making a mod to revert this entire FFF". Not because the models are bad or the underlying idea is wrong. But simply because the new models trigger such revulsion that I would not be able to tolerate having them in my game any more than if there was photorealistic vomit and defecation.

I suppose that is a sign you are getting exactly what you aimed for, but there is a threshold that if you make a thing sufficiently unpleasant to see on the screen, you might be straying from the foundational point of "a game must, above all else, be fun to play".

And I say that as someone who has no problem with (live) insects in real life. "Normal" ants are kind of cute, moths often are, as are bees. My reaction to this (vv) is how adorable it is.

[...]

Yet even I simply cannot play with the FFF's biters on my screen.
Naturally, the more detailed any insect model gets, the more disturbing it's going to look. You can't really avoid that. I hate to be that guy and say this, but I suppose if it REALLY bothers you that much, you could probably just turn biters off.

That being said, enemies are supposed to look and feel like enemies. You're right about one thing: that does seem to be what they're going for.
VenomousFire wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:41 pm
Those eyes seem unnecessarily creepy. I don't mind the rest of the model to much, but the eyes just seem disproportionately large and weird.
I think they look kinda cute. That seems to be the devs' intent, considering they want the bugs to be kinda cute to begin with. Larger eyes, head, and facial features lend to the "Chibi" aesthetic, which is what humans innately find cute.
eradicator wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:46 pm
Ernestas FF268 wrote: we want you to feel sorry about planning massive biter massacres. In fact we want you to feel pity towards them
Ernestas FF268 wrote: other surprises to make killing them extra gratifying to watch.
Am i the only one seeing a massive contradiction there? I would be quite fine with the cute+pity part (i can definetly imagine it with that model). But i hate any form of splatter or - how shall we call it? - glorification of xenocide?

I like the new style, even though i'd call the walking animation horse-like rather than insect-like. But i hope the "suprises" aren't gonna be too distasteful to me.

Btw, those squares on the pictures are not tiles are they?! That'd be quite huge...
Yes and no. I agree, there's a pretty bold line between a sympathetic killer and a cold-blooded psychopathic murderer, and it would be difficult to be on both sides of that. However, that boils down to the player -- do you avoid fighting the bugs because you feel bad for them, or do you have it out for them from the get-go and revel in their misery?

I can probably guess which type most Factorio players will be, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you must be either one or the other. IMO it also helps with immersion and gives the game just a little bit more RP potential.

I think the overall feeling they're trying to invoke is a deep-seated fear of the creepy and unknown -- in this case, the biters -- yet still make you think philosophically about invading a strange world and committing mass genocide against creatures who, in actuality, are really just trying to peacefully live their lives.
Drury wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:31 pm
TRUEpicness wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:28 pm
Amarula wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:21 pm
Albert, Ernestas wrote: the Factorio planet
Hctib wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:11 pm
on Biter's planet.
Hmm I think the Factorio planet needs a proper name: Factorium? Factination? Factinogo?
None of these seem quite right, I'll be interested to see what creative ideas the community generates :D
Factoria?
what about something traditional

like Earth
I'd like to see something even more cliche'd than that, like a heavenly or natural name such as Aether or Gaia, to imply that it really is a beautiful planet that is being taken over by machines. Mother nature, ravished again, by materialist greed. :D
Last edited by KoblerMan on Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by DanGio » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:44 pm

Niiice... I'm also really happy with the work you do / plan to do on the game sounds. I like speedruns but also long casual plays, and a better sound design will improve longplays greatly.

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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by Philip017 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:44 pm

lol these biters look even more disgusting than the previous looking ones, massacres continues with out any hard feelings. if you planned to have them cute, I'm sorry these are not it for me. on the plus side they still look like bugs and i can continue to call them as such. must squish all the bugs!

something tells me you wanted to try and make them a little cute because of satisfactory game video clip you put in a FFF a while ago, that had some furry creatures some considered to be cute.

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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by JackGruff » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:47 pm

I still want to be able to make peace with them.

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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by Tomik » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:51 pm

Uh oh. Guys? Factorio planet already has an in-game file. It was found by modders who looked at the game code. The planet is called Nauvis which literally means 'New'.
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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by KoblerMan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:00 pm

Philip017 wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:44 pm
lol these biters look even more disgusting than the previous looking ones, massacres continues with out any hard feelings. if you planned to have them cute, I'm sorry these are not it for me. on the plus side they still look like bugs and i can continue to call them as such. must squish all the bugs!

something tells me you wanted to try and make them a little cute because of satisfactory game video clip you put in a FFF a while ago, that had some furry creatures some considered to be cute.
Yeah, Factorio isn't really a game where I feel the cute aesthetic works. Sure, you could have cute traits in the biters for some added sympathy, but killing a bunch of wide-eyed, innocent fluffy creatures that can't fight back would be a bit odd, disturbing even.

I think if anything in Factorio should be cute, it should be the players' robots or animal companions.
JackGruff wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:47 pm
I still want to be able to make peace with them.
Yes, I absolutely agree. Ever since I discovered this topic by one of the devs, I couldn't stop thinking about the potential there. Efficiency modules are absolutely unreal for reducing pollution, and only the woefully few people who have even ever bothered to use them instead of speed/productivity modules would know this.

I think there's a very real possibility that this topic will be revisited now that we're talking about biter design again. It excites me greatly to think that we could make peace with the biters.
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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by NelsonSKA » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:01 pm

I think that to feel some guilt there should be neutral biters in the nest. No attackers, or things like "the family" ... responsible for breeding the "warriors" of the nest ... maybe. Like an ant colony.

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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by KoblerMan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:09 pm

NelsonSKA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:01 pm
I think that to feel some guilt there should be neutral biters in the nest. No attackers, or things like "the family" ... responsible for breeding the "warriors" of the nest ... maybe. Like an ant colony.
I do like this idea a lot. I think overall, bug nests are just too plain. Aside from the occasional worm as a turret and biters/spitters milling around, there isn't really much of anything going on. Kind of disappointing, really.

How about larvae and eggs that have very tough armor that can't be easily penetrated by bullets, but take extra damage from fire and high explosives? (Think Zerg larvae and eggs from StarCraft)
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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by Drury » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:10 pm

NelsonSKA wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:01 pm
I think that to feel some guilt there should be neutral biters in the nest. No attackers, or things like "the family" ... responsible for breeding the "warriors" of the nest ... maybe. Like an ant colony.
Maybe they could have little hardhats and build little biter-factories so you can identify with them.
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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by Escadin » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:15 pm

Those are biters alright.
+1 for the legs.
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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by Reika » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:36 pm

KoblerMan wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:43 pm
Reika wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:16 pm
Well, I think this marks the first FFF where I read it and thought "I guess I will be making a mod to revert this entire FFF". Not because the models are bad or the underlying idea is wrong. But simply because the new models trigger such revulsion that I would not be able to tolerate having them in my game any more than if there was photorealistic vomit and defecation.

I suppose that is a sign you are getting exactly what you aimed for, but there is a threshold that if you make a thing sufficiently unpleasant to see on the screen, you might be straying from the foundational point of "a game must, above all else, be fun to play".

And I say that as someone who has no problem with (live) insects in real life. "Normal" ants are kind of cute, moths often are, as are bees. My reaction to this (vv) is how adorable it is.

[...]

Yet even I simply cannot play with the FFF's biters on my screen.
Naturally, the more detailed any insect model gets, the more disturbing it's going to look. You can't really avoid that.
You are missing the part - despite quoting it - where I mentioned that real insects rarely bother me. Being more realistic is not likely to be the problem here.

KoblerMan wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:43 pm
I hate to be that guy and say this, but I suppose if it REALLY bothers you that much, you could probably just turn biters off.
They are a core part of the gameplay. "Just turn them off" is actively unhelpful as a recommendation.

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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by H8UL » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:39 pm

Hctib wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:11 pm
...]How about giving them a really heart-breaking death sound, for example Puppy Crying SOUND EFFECT?
Or, instead of inducing mental breaks among players hearing unpleasant or sometimes even annoying sounds every time the Biters attack, how about giving the Biters both defensive and offensive sounds? The first one would induce guiltiness and would activate near their spawners, the second one would be a neutral sound which don't make you crazy and would activate near player's structure or on neutral ground. Player's expansion doesn't happen that often in the opposition to Biters' constant attacks, so you wouldn't get annoyed unless destroying many alien bases one by one. In addition, dooming one base would discourage you from leading further wars for some time, until you can bear the guilt again.
What do you think?
That's actually very good, I could imagine biters making a whining/mourning sound when you destroy a spawner. To add to it, occasionally have a biter or two just run up to a destroyed spawner and look at it for a moment. Those sorts of things make the AI seem more real, as if they had such "emotional responses".
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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by Koub » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:40 pm

I love creepy cute things :)
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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by cpy » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:59 pm

DIIIIEEEEE ALIEN SCUM!
I'm gonna shoot every one of them.

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Re: Friday Facts #268 - The modern Biter

Post by eradicator » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:02 pm

The planet is called "Nauvis" and i doubt that's going to change. The only thing that's might change is that the new campaign actually mentions the name often enough for people to remember. ;)

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@KoblerMan: You totally missed the point. I was talking about the visual and aural aspects of biter killing. And those are not "up to the player" at all. If they added splatter effects i would be forced to see them. So hopefully they don't.
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