Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Koub » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:00 pm

eradicator wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:27 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:19 am
eradicator wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:51 am

Many things have been sacrificed to appease Yuu Peyes the Alaccelerating.
Huh?
UPS optimizations.
Holy sh*t
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by SomeLazyBastard » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:00 am

Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics Let's make the game easier for confused casuals
Fixed that for you.
These changes range from "meh" to "WTF?".
Taking certain behaviors out of the engine entirely to the point where they can't be modded back in is beyond the pale.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:10 am

eradicator wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:27 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:19 am
eradicator wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:51 am
I have no clue if there even is a proper definition of "engine" in a gaming context. I called it that because it's an easy to understand term for everyone.
There is, but I've explained it enough already that I'd probably get banned for off-topicness if I got further into it. That's what makes it an inappropriate word to use the way you used it.
Please add it to wikipedia, because they don't have a magic definition to perfectly seperate all engines from all non-engines.
a) I can't top "A game engine is a software-development environment designed for people to build video games."
b) Check out my user talk page on Wikipedia.
featherwinglove wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:19 am
I think that situation has already changed in 0.17, but I sincerely hope the Wube guys just come to their senses and put the native code back in so we can mod it back the efficient way.
There is nothing in the 0.17 api preview that suggests anything has changed about how mod guis work.
Not exactly what I was relying on. Of course, if none of those mean that the devs will be improving the mod API w.r.t. GUI stuff, that means the modding community really has been abandoned :cry:
SomeLazyBastard wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:00 am
Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics Let's make the game easier for confused casuals
Fixed that for you.
These changes range from "meh" to "WTF?".
Taking certain behaviors out of the engine entirely to the point where they can't be modded back in is beyond the pale.
We're not saying we need a pail, guys, but we would like our axes back pls ;)

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:26 am

bobingabout wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:29 pm
I'm just going to go sit in the corner and cry now...
Mind if I join you?

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Bilka » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:26 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:10 am
Of course, if none of those mean that the devs will be improving the mod API w.r.t. GUI stuff, that means the modding community really has been abandoned :cry:
What? How is 2 new entity types just for modders "abandoned". How is two new energy source types just for modders "abandoned". How is the entirety of this changelog nothing to you?
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by eradicator » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:58 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:10 am
a) I can't top "A game engine is a software-development environment designed for people to build video games."
I was just implying that that defintion is as vague as it gets. When is my "development environment" inside factorio lua big enough so i can call it an engine. How many libraries/tools/etc do i have to build there to earn that "right"? Look up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox.
featherwinglove wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:10 am
Not exactly what I was relying on. Of course, if none of those mean that the devs will be improving the mod API w.r.t. GUI stuff, that means the modding community really has been abandoned :cry:
All of those talk about the base game gui. With the only mention of mods at all being related to non-gui mods. There's exactly one open interface request that would change a lot about modding guis, and nothing has happend there for a few month. For context: I do gui heavy modding myself, and know that part of the api quite well.
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by foodfactorio » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:59 am

hi, just a quick note on the Mining Iron quiz..

if you do a quiz in future.. please can you mark out the start, and end of the quiz, plus leave some empty lines at the end, otherwise people will scroll down too far and see the answer :)
for example, and now for today's quiz...

"Quiz Start"

picture, text, etc
picture text etc

"Quiz End"

.
.
.
(blank lines)

and now for the anwer:
x :)
(also me from the mod portal - im not dustine lol) = https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Dustine/ ... ssion/9108
my 1st Mod Idea :) viewtopic.php?f=33&t=50256

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by foodfactorio » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:14 am

in a funny way, when i did the quiz, i ended up with 20.625 iron per second lol
but that was because i divided the mining power, by mining hardness,
and then after halfing, i multipled it by 25 (taking 5x5 to be 25) lol :D but hey :D
(also me from the mod portal - im not dustine lol) = https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Dustine/ ... ssion/9108
my 1st Mod Idea :) viewtopic.php?f=33&t=50256

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:33 pm

Bilka wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:26 am
featherwinglove wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:10 am
Of course, if none of those mean that the devs will be improving the mod API w.r.t. GUI stuff, that means the modding community really has been abandoned :cry:
What? How is 2 new entity types just for modders "abandoned". How is two new energy source types just for modders "abandoned". How is the entirety of this changelog nothing to you?
I'm not understanding what that has to do with GUI. Also, the stuff removed as of this FFF amounted to much more than that, at least until we learned mining hardness could be modded back in, and I can only imagine the sigh of relief from bobingabout there!
eradicator wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:58 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:10 am
a) I can't top "A game engine is a software-development environment designed for people to build video games."
I was just implying that that defintion is as vague as it gets. When is my "development environment" inside factorio lua big enough so i can call it an engine. How many libraries/tools/etc do i have to build there to earn that "right"? Look up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox.
After using a few of Borland's products (yeah, I haven't done real programming in a while) and for Factorio, I don't even have Notepad++, so I know it doesn't come with Factorio. I know what it is lacking as a game engine. One of the big deals is that no matter how much you mod Factorio, it's still the Factorio logo at startup, and in many other ways recognizably Factorio. There have been a couple of Unity games (and yeah, there are plenty more bare startups of a Unity game where most of the stock features and assets make it brain-dead obvious that I'm looking at little more than an asset flip, and that includes Kerbal Space Program 0.7.3, the very first public release, boy has it come a long way!) where I play the whole game (or not-actually-a-game in the example I'm about to highlight), and get to the end and the Unity logo rolls in the credits and I'm like "HOLY [crap]ING [crap]!! It's running on [crap]ing UNITY!?!!?" The most surprising such moment is the first time I had NASA's (i.e. US National Aeronautics and Space Administration, seriously!) Eyes On The Solar System crash, thus identifying itself as a "Unity game". I nearly peed myself. It is quite impossible for Factorio to produce such a moment.

To answer your Sorite's Paradox claim, it seems like you're asking me to call a boulder with a few grains of sand clustered around the bottom of it a "heap".

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by posila » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:42 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:33 pm
eradicator wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:58 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:10 am
a) I can't top "A game engine is a software-development environment designed for people to build video games."
I was just implying that that defintion is as vague as it gets. When is my "development environment" inside factorio lua big enough so i can call it an engine. How many libraries/tools/etc do i have to build there to earn that "right"? Look up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox
After using a few of Borland's products (yeah, I haven't done real programming in a while) and for Factorio, I don't even have Notepad++, so I know it doesn't come with Factorio. I know what it is lacking as a game engine. One of the big deals is that no matter how much you mod Factorio, it's still the Factorio logo at startup, and in many other ways recognizably Factorio.
You are confusing development environment with integrated development environment (IDE). Unity or applications from Borland are the latter, and development environment is any set of applications, tools and libraries a developer uses to develop a software. Admittedly, the wikipedia article you quoted will lead you to page about IDE, but that is just because there is no article about just "development environment" (probably because it is too broad term). The same article says also
In many cases game engines provide a suite of visual development tools in addition to reusable software components. These tools are generally provided in an integrated development environment to enable simplified, rapid development of games in a data-driven manner. Game engine developers attempt to "pre-invent the wheel" by developing robust software suites which include many elements a game developer may need to build a game. Most game engine suites provide facilities that ease development, such as graphics, sound, physics and AI functions.
Which implies not all game engines have to provide integrated development environment.

I wouldn't call Factorio itself a game engine, but I would say it runs on one tailored specifically for Factorio. I hope nobody is surprised modding API doesn't provide same functionality as general game engine like Unity.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by eradicator » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:33 am

posila wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:42 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:10 am
a) I can't top "A game engine is a software-development environment designed for people to build video games."
I wouldn't call Factorio itself a game engine, but I would say it runs on one tailored specifically for Factorio. I hope nobody is surprised modding API doesn't provide same functionality as general game engine like Unity.
As a mod developer i have no access to any of the tools used by wube in-house, so the "environment" part of the definition definetly doesn't fit. Ofc this applies to almost every game. So is an engine still an engine when installed on the customers system without any of the tools? I'll call it an engine/non-engine duality.
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Klonan » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:05 am

eradicator wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:33 am
As a mod developer i have no access to any of the tools used by wube in-house, so the "environment" part of the definition definetly doesn't fit. Ofc this applies to almost every game. So is an engine still an engine when installed on the customers system without any of the tools? I'll call it an engine/non-engine duality.
We don't really have any special in-house tools

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by bobucles » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:36 pm

Klonan wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:05 am
eradicator wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:33 am
As a mod developer i have no access to any of the tools used by wube in-house, so the "environment" part of the definition definetly doesn't fit. Ofc this applies to almost every game. So is an engine still an engine when installed on the customers system without any of the tools? I'll call it an engine/non-engine duality.
We don't really have any special in-house tools
Notepad++ totally counts as a special in-house tool. :lol:

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Oktokolo » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:50 pm

Klonan wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:05 am
We don't really have any special in-house tools
The most helpfull non-published (might also have missed it) inhouse "tool" for modders would be the set of settings for a 3D modelling application (Blender?), wich allows to render sprites in the exact same perspective and with the exact same baked-in lighting as vanilla.
The API documentation is great. Something like that - but listing general guidelines and hints of how to make art for Factorio instead of function signatures - would probably help non-artists a lot when it comes to making new sprites for a mod.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by posila » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:52 pm

eradicator wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:33 am
posila wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:42 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:10 am
a) I can't top "A game engine is a software-development environment designed for people to build video games."
I wouldn't call Factorio itself a game engine, but I would say it runs on one tailored specifically for Factorio. I hope nobody is surprised modding API doesn't provide same functionality as general game engine like Unity.
As a mod developer i have no access to any of the tools used by wube in-house, so the "environment" part of the definition definetly doesn't fit. Ofc this applies to almost every game. So is an engine still an engine when installed on the customers system without any of the tools? I'll call it an engine/non-engine duality.
As I said, I wouldn't call Factorio itself a game engine. You can take car engine and build rest of the car around it, but the engine would still be an engine. Then someone else might add a spoiler on the car or change wheel rims without tools you originally had for building that car. Or someone could take the engine out and build different car around it (understand - put it to different car), it would be probably much more difficult without compatible tools, but that wouldn't make the engine any less of an engine.

The point it, the fact your environment differs from mine is irrelevant. What I wonder is ... what separates a game from an engine? If there is a line, it is very blurred one in Factorio. If entire vanilla wasn't specified through prototypes in Lua, I would say there is no engine, all of it is just a game. Assembling machine itself is element of a game, but configurable assembling machine entity type - could that be considered component of highly specialized game engine? I would say yes.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Avezo » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:30 am

I just had a new idea of mine to add up to removal of tiered assemblers - allow all assembler recipes to be crafted in chemical plants aswell, but with additional requisition of lubricant, which would make baseline crafting speed higher as a benefit. That removes bloat of tiered assemblers, yet still adds some meaningful progress.

On a side note, lubricant is barely used anyway, as it is now it feels like bloat itself, completely unlike it is in real factories - you really need to either remove it or find MUCH more appropriate uses for it.

My other suggestion is to have 2 types of assemblers - slow one that uses no lubricant and faster one that does use it. Lubricant wouldn't be a part of any recipe anymore, it would be a way to 'power up' faster assemblers. It just seems to make more sense.

One way or another, I think 3 tiers of assemblers should be gone as they are now from base game.
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by theoctopi » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:42 am

I quite enjoy having a selection of "few uses" products to deal with (e.g., lubricant, concrete, etc.): they give me a puzzle to solve. I think there's a danger in over-streamlining in that you might find you end up with an optimal build and that would kill the game for me.

I'm all for either removing the pick-axe or making it a permanent, once-off addition to the player. In fact, I'd go further: make the pick-axe upgradeable and do the same for armour. Because I have no further use for tier N armour once I have tier N+1, it dissuades me from building anything other than the top tier armour.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:12 am

posila wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:42 pm
You are confusing development environment with integrated development environment (IDE).
No, I'm not, I just didn't make the distinction. I agree with Oktokolo that a Factorio standard Blender preset would certainly constitute a healthy part of the development environment.
Avezo wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:30 am
I just had a new idea of mine to add up to removal of tiered assemblers - allow all assembler recipes to be crafted in chemical plants aswell, but with additional requisition of lubricant, which would make baseline crafting speed higher as a benefit.
Tiered machines is something that I really enjoy, which is why I tend to mod in even more tiers than vanilla has, including several sub-AM1 machines. I do like the idea of module fuel like your idea of lubricant for the sake of the machine.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by obuw » Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:47 pm

I know I'm late to the discussion, but as someone who plays modded factorio, it really sucks to see some of these things get "cleaned up".

Mining hardness was a nice way to encourage tiered mining. Want to mine tungsten? If you don't have at least T3 drills, it's going to take a *really* long time. etc.

Burner efficiency removal also sucks for the same reason. You can't have different tiers of less or more efficient burners anymore. It would be great if you just set everything in the base game to 100% efficiency, and omitted the info from the tooltip if it's 100%. So anyone playing vanilla would not see the info at all, but if a mod adds something with, say, 70% efficiency, or 120% efficiency, it would show up as part of the tooltip.

As for resistance streamlining: As long as it is possible to add new resistance types through modding, I don't mind them being streamlined in the base game. But if we're stuck with four resistance types, it's going to make combat a lot less interesting.
Obuw's Warfare - Combat improvements

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Klonan » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:11 pm

obuw wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:47 pm
It would be great if you just set everything in the base game to 100% efficiency, and omitted the info from the tooltip if it's 100%. So anyone playing vanilla would not see the info at all, but if a mod adds something with, say, 70% efficiency, or 120% efficiency, it would show up as part of the tooltip.
Thats what we did, the functionality still exists
obuw wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:47 pm
As for resistance streamlining: As long as it is possible to add new resistance types through modding, I don't mind them being streamlined in the base game. But if we're stuck with four resistance types, it's going to make combat a lot less interesting.
We are just removing some of the base game categories, mods can still add/amend/remove as they please

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