Factorio Forums

Pinga wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:53 pm

- Should pistols be removed from the game? Right now there's no reason to ever craft one. On a free game, you never really have to use them. In multiplayer games it's just something every player will pile up in random chests.

I'd say yes, but I don't decide that. I've said for years pistols are worthless and I use them to troll people by dropping them all over/filling their inventory with them.

Pinga wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:53 pm

- Is armor durability necessary? They can't be repaired, and breaking a Power Armor doesn't sound like a very appealing mechanic. It doesn't seem to have any kind of interesting interaction from the player, other than worrying that your armor might break one day.

No, armor durability was removed from the base game in 0.17. You can still use it with mods but base game armor doesn't use durability in 0.17.

Nice post, guys! Great work on all the streamlining. Specifically the pickaxe - that was an axe I had to grind with Early Game.

However, I'm not sure I'm feeling the Assembler change. I really do feel that the number of ingredients an assembler can take is part of the technological progression. Yesa, it can be expensive for early-game, but that really shows you that a) you gotta set up the factory properly, and b) however much you thought was enough resources, you WILL need more. Remember your first actual belt of iron> Well, that got eaten by assemblers, go find some more!

Removing assembler limits

I remember very little of my Factorio early days. But I do remember being very confused when I tried to build inserters with tier 1 assemblers. I didn't know what an ingredient was, or which recipes were important, and why my first assembler couldn't build so many things. At the very least the first tier assembler should have a 3 item limit. That means you won't bash into an invisible obstacle within the first 10 minutes of the game.

I'm not entirely okay with removing assembler limits. I think it'd be great to have some clear visual upgrades which SHOW when an assembler's mechanics get expanded. For example the second tier assembler can input liquids, which is a clear upgrade over the first tier. So show the liquid connection points! Show something even if they're not used, so a player can look at assembler 1 vs. assembler 2 and go "oh, I see. 2 has a thing that 1 doesn't".

I'd say yes, but I don't decide that. I've said for years pistols are worthless and I use them to troll people by dropping them all over/filling their inventory with them.

Replace pistols with throwing rocks. Mine rocks, throw them.

In my opinion the devs should not care much for mod compatiblity in the next version. Backward compatiblity is nice, but always has some disadvantage about making changes that improve a game / program.
They don't have to break mods just for the lulz, but "that change would break mods!" should be a very low priority for a con. At what time should mods be broken if not in early access in advance to version 1.0? That's the best time to do it. I may even irrationally LIKE the idea to break mods for 1.0, just to have a clean start for everyone - but that would be really mean for the mod devs like Bob. ^^

Concerning assembler: I always disliked how I can't make basic inserters with the first assembler tier. That is a weird stop in my "build flow", having to first get blue assemblers. Can't say if this change is all in all good or bad, but THAT specific details is good. ^^

Removing pickaxe: Yeah, good decision. At the start I build 10 pickaxes, and after unlocking steel pickaxes I throw the remaining ones away and build 10 steel pickaxes. Done. Annoying and useless.

For the resistances, I was hoping an improvement of bitters that would make them more usefull. For example different species that would force you to adapt your weapons or armors. Some bitters would be resistant to lszer, and you would have to go back to bullet or flamethrower.

Gotta say, I don't think I've been this excited about a FFF since the GUI announcements. Since we haven't even hit 1.0 yet, focusing on the new user experience rather than the current community is definitely the right choice.

Could someone explain the Assembling machine ingredient limit removal change like I'm 5? I don't think I follow 100%. Does this mean that you can craft any assembler recipe with any assembler(assuming you have the required research)?
Does this boil down the differences between assembler performance/capability to just crafting speed now?

Very interesting changes, keep up the great work!

-Thanks

Rseding91 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:54 pm

Pinga wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:53 pm

- Should pistols be removed from the game? Right now there's no reason to ever craft one. On a free game, you never really have to use them. In multiplayer games it's just something every player will pile up in random chests.

I'd say yes, but I don't decide that. I've said for years pistols are worthless and I use them to troll people by dropping them all over/filling their inventory with them.

Pinga wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:53 pm

- Is armor durability necessary? They can't be repaired, and breaking a Power Armor doesn't sound like a very appealing mechanic. It doesn't seem to have any kind of interesting interaction from the player, other than worrying that your armor might break one day.

No, armor durability was removed from the base game in 0.17. You can still use it with mods but base game armor doesn't use durability in 0.17.

Thanks for the answer, that's really nice to hear.

My opinion:

Positive changes:

• Pickaxe - however it should be gated so that the "research" actually requires production of steel. There have been plenty of games where I research steel but don't actually start producing it for many hours. It doesn't make sense to have a "steel pickaxe" if I've never made a single steel bar.
• Mining power/hardness - though why not have the time for mining stone be something like 80%? You are keeping in that functionality for uranium. Why choose one and not the other?
• Resistances - however some thought should go into which categories should be kept. I don't like the ones that remain. Generic and impact should be combined, and keep explosive. No change for heat and acid (though rename acid to poison?).

Negative changes:

• Efficiency to burners - I argue that removing this does not improve the game, and takes away a little bit of depth simply for the sake of trying to streamline. The same calculation is still necessary, just without one (simple) multiplication factor. I argue that 13.33 items/s * 8 MJ /3.6 MW is still a difficult calculation. I also want to point out that unless you know a megawatt is a megajoule per second (which some younger players may fall into), it is not clear how to derive the formula anyway.
• Assembling machine - without having the gate on number of items, there is little reason to promote from assembly machine 1 to 3. Assembly time alone is not a great enough incentive by itself. Why go through the trouble of creating a more complex assembly machine 2/3 assembly line if just making more assembly machine 1's takes care of this problem? I suppose once one considers modules or pollution, maybe it starts to swing in the other direction, but I argue that until that point, there is no reason for upgrading.

Edit: I also like the previously mentioned idea of removing durability from armor.

I don't agree with removing pickaxe. Sure they're almost useless mechanics and become obsolete after construction bots, but that's because construction bots have instant mining speed. That's another topic though.

Instead make pickaxe rather expensive. Improve all non-pickaxe, iron and steel mining speed. Remove their durability, making them act as weapons.

Put them on weapon slot, that if you press space, you'll swing it in a arc and destroying things, useful for mid game tree clearance. Steel one have bigger arc. Unlock them with other research, like military or steel research. Add also uranium one. That way it won't lose to bot.

Better is if they can mine in 2x2 or even 3x3 area at the same time (and just drop things). Or if you like, combine them with shotgun so every swing will also shoot bullets, nice!

Oh, and please remember: assembling machine 2 and 3 have accordingly 2 and 4 slots for modules as a unique feature to distinguish them from the first assembling machine.

About the resistances: can there be an option to show ALL resistances, even for non-fight related entities?
And can all fight-related entities show resistances by default? (walls/gates, turrets, tanks, maybe cars) If new players don't see resistance values they may think that said entity has no resistances, which may not be the case.

I like all these changes except the assemblers one, and not for the lazy bastard achievement. I think that the recipe complexity graduation actually does add something to the game! It ramps up the complexity in a meaningful and predictable manner, and adding "Makes recipes with 1/2/any number of ingredients" to the tooltip should be plenty easy to understand. Unlike pickaxes, the functionality does get used, and it gates factory expansion. It makes for a noticeable progression as well-- and people like progression.

I like the other streamlining, but... not this one.

I like all the changes, but I'm neutral about the assemblers.

Since we're looking at streamlining game mechanics, can we look at the rocket silo? It's full of unexpected behaviours that's not taught anywhere in the game: crafts two recipes at the same time (rocket parts and the rocket itself), if you remove it you lose all progress and ingredients, and destroys output results whenever is launched, assemblers and furnaces don't do any of that.

I disagree with removing the recipe limits on the Assembly machines. The problem with people rushing to Machine 2 has more to do with people needing what those machines can construct than not finding the distinction useful.

You can't build a steam engine with machine 1, nor an electric mine, nor an offshore pump, nor a lab, nor a regular inserter. You can't even make machine 1 with machine 1! It is basically useless, and for that reason everyone rushes to machine 2.

This is a balance issue. Machine 1 should be able to build all the basic stuff you need for your factory up to and including red and green science. Machine 1 should be able to build itself and machine 2.

Machine 2, could then enable oil, and the next couple science packs, and build machine 3.

Machine 3 can then build everything.

Each step should provide the minimum to bootstrap the next step. If you don't want to change the base product types, add some intermediary products.

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Another area of confusion in the gui are the multitude of places that the exact same icon can appear: the lower quickbar, the player inventory, and the handcrafting window. I can't tell you how many times I have clicked on a handcrafting button meaning to select something out of the inventory, when it was actually in the quickbar... All these things should be part of the same thing.

I would suggest combining them as part of the "e" menu. Quickbar repeated at the top, then the player inventory, and handcraftable items NOT already in the players inventory listed at the bottom. You could use something like a CTRL-click or a right click to queue handcrafting for items the player already has one of.

Realistically mining tools are worthless by the time you are 30 minutes into the game you have reached the peak of what is possible in vanilla and I usually just craft 10 so I never run out of steelaxes, what this means is mining tools are now a minor inconvenience that hardly represents any value in the game and further to that there is nothing left that distinguishes between the physical tool and the character mining speed bonus multiplier. The same is true for modded tools, they are usually just faster tools which again parallels character mining speed modifier.

Its also clear most people have no idea about assembly machine 1 apart from the ingredient difference, they also cannot craft anything with a fluid or be influenced by beacons so you certainly cannot go to end game without at least assembly machine 2s like before. Besides realistically what do you do when you unlock assembly 1? Use it to unlock assembly 2 and craft assembly machine 2s because assembly machine 1s can't do anything beyond make some gears, belts and circuits.

The meme "Praise the Steelaxe" has emerged from it, to praise the Factorio God

All the more reason to PRAISE THE SUBSTATION!!!

leighzer wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:47 am

Could someone explain the Assembling machine ingredient limit removal change like I'm 5? I don't think I follow 100%. Does this mean that you can craft any assembler recipe with any assembler(assuming you have the required research)?
Does this boil down the differences between assembler performance/capability to just crafting speed now?

Very interesting changes, keep up the great work!

-Thanks

Basically that; previously assembly machines had a limit to the amount of ingredients that could be in the recipes they could craft; that has now been removed.

caviidae wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:54 pm

I took a couple hours to fully get this game. In my early play through, creating blue assemblers was a memorable progression moment that finally hooked my play to a progression treadmill. The thought was "wow! research enables me to automate making even grey factories!" followed immediately by "... oh I can automate the better one blue ones too!". For me; electricity & smelting, blue factory automation, railways, and constructions robots were wow-cool moments.

After thinking about it awhile, I agree with you. This is not a change they should make.

No. Let's just nope this. This. Is. Wrong.

I won't pick anything apart here… okay, I could live with… nope, even if I could live with *this* part or *that* part, I won't pick and choose: this is just completely wrong.

It's a dumbing down for making it "simpler"… to what goal? FACTORIO ISN'T SIMPLE! WE DIDN'T GET INTO THIS BECAUSE SIMPLE!

Again, as in the "let's remove bots" brouhaha, you seem to have lost the plot, Kovarex, you seem to have forgotten (if you ever actually understood it) why people played and play Factorio. The complexity is part of this. With the bots, it was because it did *NOT* proscribe how to play it, it didn't (and, thankfully, still doesn't) force me to play a certain style. Factorio is *NOT* a puzzle game. It contains puzzles… well, it contains everything to make your own puzzles.

EDIT: Final note: "Since it was yet another thing that had to be explained somehow, we decided to just remove it." Everything has to be explained somehow ("The only intuitive interface is the nipple, and even that must be learned."), so why not remove everything? Why bother?

(But disregard me, I'm obviously just some random off the 'net…)

DavidEscott wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:38 am

I disagree with removing the recipe limits on the Assembly machines. The problem with people rushing to Machine 2 has more to do with people needing what those machines can construct than not finding the distinction useful.

You can't build a steam engine with machine 1, nor an electric mine, nor an offshore pump, nor a lab, nor a regular inserter. You can't even make machine 1 with machine 1! It is basically useless, and for that reason everyone rushes to machine 2.

This is a balance issue. Machine 1 should be able to build all the basic stuff you need for your factory up to and including red and green science. Machine 1 should be able to build itself and machine 2.

Machine 2, could then enable oil, and the next couple science packs, and build machine 3.

Machine 3 can then build everything.

Each step should provide the minimum to bootstrap the next step. If you don't want to change the base product types, add some intermediary products.

I totally agree. That Assembling Machine 1 can't assemble 2 always annoyed me. The moment you've done that one should be the last time you have to craft something by hand. "But a refinery cannot be done in 2 and you need a refinery to make the ingredients for 3". Yup, but why not… have two recipes for it? One with six ingredients that you'd do later in Assembly 3, and one with 4 (one as a special "part of a complete breakfast refinery"). Or something like that.