Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Regular reports on Factorio development.
NineTailedFox
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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by NineTailedFox » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:00 pm

Gebus wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:38 pm
Any chance of 0.17 for christmas? Really want to get my brother into it but I want to wait until the campaign/tutorial content is improved so he isn't put off in the first few hours. Can you allude to a 0.17 announcement at all in the near future?

Good work as usual guys, thanks.
I would realy like to know this as well

BrickNukem
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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by BrickNukem » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:14 pm

My best effort:

Code: Select all

Spawning entities into the world:
You build an entity
Drones build an entity

Ghosts:
You plan a ghost entity
You plan a blueprint
You snap a new blueprint
You cancel a planned entity (this one was missing)

Collecting entities and items:
You grab an entity
Drones grab an entity
You grab an item from the ground (F or click)
You grab an item from an entity
Drones grab an item from the ground
Drones grab an item from an entity

Crafting items:
You craft an item
Entities craft an item
You carry an item
Entities carry an item (bit weird for assembling machines maybe)
You put an item into an entity
You put an item onto the ground
Drones put an item into an entity
Drones put an item onto the ground
Entities put an item into an entity (inserters, splitters, etc)
You/drones/entities put an item onto a belt

Things and players mine resources (oil, ore, etc)
You deploy a drone/grenade/capsule/remote/etc
So basically everything for entities and items becomes:
Craft/grab -> carry -> build/put
For players, entities and drones.

Another way to look at what it means to build: putting an item onto the ground, which is then transformed into an entity.
What it means to craft: Merge carried items into a new item.

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by abregado » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:35 pm

Seems everyone is getting into this.

The results I added to the form are just the answers that I collected from the ~10 youtube videos i watched, and the answers from people around the office. Nothing scientific about it really, especially as I wrote the thing at 1am. They are not "candidates for release" or anything.

Seeing as so many people already enjoyed it (~1300 responses already) Ill put a bit more effort into the next one.

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by Greybeard_LXI » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:01 pm

The survey is a good exercise. It showed me how difficult it is to choose the correct word for something.

To me, moving something already built (constructed, crafted) from my inventory to where it forms part of the factory (outpost, base) is placing. But the manufacture has already been done either in an assembler, chemical plant or hand. I guess placing also works for moving something to a chest.

Then removing would be the appropriate word, not deconstruction. Deconstruction does not seem to be the right word for the automated chopping of trees. Maybe harvest the trees and rocks?

One word that gives me problems (maybe for next survey) is "inserter". Every time I type it in this forum my (US English) spell checker highlights it. The function seems to be the same as some robots I saw in automobile manufacturing plants. But if you use robot for the current inserter then the flying construction and logistics bots could become drones. I am not sure when bots were added in Factorio, but drones seem to have become much more common since I started in 14.23.

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by MassiveDynamic » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:40 pm

This is the best FFF in several weeks. I definitely agree that a standardized naming protocol needs to be established. But, we all know that nicknames will always be a part of the community experience. I always use the color of the item/entity/object as its identifier because it is easier and more intuitive than trying to learn the official name. (i.e. green,red,blue circuits, or yellow,red,blue belts)

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by Avezo » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:45 pm

You 'pop' an entity, then you 'flop' it.
Image

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by Oktokolo » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:48 pm

I already took the survey and opted for place / pick up of structures.
But now, some hours later, i think, install / uninstall sounds more like what is actually done. You make the structure in your inventory and then install it on the ground. You uninstall the structure and store it in your inventory or hold it in your hand.

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by zOldBulldog » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:59 pm

When I first read this I though that Steam networking was needed but didn't give much thought to Nomenclature.

Then this afternoon I built my beaconed arty shell production line and went to put Productivity Modules on Arty Shells... nope, "Productivity modules are only usable on intermediate products." OK, fine I thought, I never understood the point of the limiatation but I'll put it on the Explosive Cannon Shells needed to make the Artillery shells... same message. Grrr. So I go to put it on the Radar... same.

The instinctive reaction? "Stupid game!!!" of course.

I've played enough with the game that I am used to these things and can live with it. But a newer player will get frustrated. Mainly because there seems to be no consistency as to what is considered an "intermediate product".

You definitely need to do some work on this, and it might be more than just nomenclature.

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by Alice3173 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:19 pm

eradicator wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:45 pm
Name the action a player performs when they add a ghost entity to the world?
  • Honestly? "Plan". The whole "ghost" concept is a silly internal-name leak. Ask anyone who never played factorio what a ghost is and they most definetly won't start talking about construction plans. Besides the deconstruction planner already has it in the name.
It may not be what immediately comes to mind but nonetheless it's a completely intuitive term to use for them which people will understand quite easily. Ghosts are incorporeal entities and that's exactly what you lay down with a blueprint.

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Nova
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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by Nova » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:52 pm

Reika wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:13 pm
As a result, if you try to force naming, you are likely to just end up with multiple "domains" of nomenclature which have difficulty communicating.
That is exactly what already happens / already happened. In the moment the game even encourages that by using multiple names for the same thing / action. Normalising that will actively oppose this and help new players with learning the game.
Reika wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:13 pm
People may actively dislike some term that others have chosen, due to them finding it misleading, or difficult to use (pronounce, spell, etc), or just stupid.
And? :)
Normalising the names would not change that. Some people use this name, some that name. Having a "standard name" would not change that, just reduce the amount of people who use the other name(s), depending on how good the standard name is.
(I believe "underneathies" is some kind of inside joke and will never see usage in the actual game. ^^)


@zOldBulldog: Well, changing the name won't solve the problem. Productivity modules are just by definition of the buff an exponential system - either you block nearly every item from profiting by productivity modules, or you multiply your items by huge amounts. A better way would be to only allow them for end products, but even that doesn't really work as some end products (assembling machine 1) are components for other end products (assembling machine 2).
Yeah, the buff should probably be changed or the item even removed.
Greetings, Nova.
Factorio is one of the greatest games I ever played, with one of the best developers I ever heard of. Image

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Philip017
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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by Philip017 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:06 pm

enjoyed this FFF! thanks

Language consistency is important yes, i have left you also my feedback on the google form.

the reddit post about science potions is interesting, i have always just called them by their color, perhaps because i played long before they were anything but colors, now we have military, production, high tech, and science, why does red, green and blue not have a proper name? science pack 1,2,3?

maybe i played a little too much dnd/starcraft but the biters/spitters are all bugs, because they look like bugs, and the nests are spawners. because when you die you respawn, so the biters spawn.

i never knew your ticks you posted for a good long time, i played easly over 2000 hours before i learned the landfill/concrete/brick trick, and it took reading about it on one of the FFFs before i learned about the shift click assembly machine and shift right click requester chest to paste the requests automatically, although i almost always have to adjust the amount anyway due to distance and/or how much the chest can hold vs how much is being requested. reactor copy paste anyone? but i usually end up with 4 input chests for reactors, and since there is no easy way to copy one item, it's individual.

i am so glad to hear about the steam networking fix, i wondered why it didn't work like this a long time ago, the game is so well polished already. really appreciate this addition.

hope that you officially put loaders into the game, with out having to enable them manually, and it would be really nice if they had the ability to load and unload trains and have a circuit connection to set filters/limits

thanks again for the wonderful game!

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by 5thHorseman » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:34 pm

TIL I'm boring when I talk. I must have answered "put" or "take" for half of the questions. And that's just because the other half didn't have "put" or "take" as answers.

EDIT: After doing the Reddit quiz, I also learned that I refer to all science packs by their color except military. How odd. I wonder if it's because it and space science (which I don't tend to refer to because I consider launching the rocket as winning the game so I've earned all of a couple thousand of them all time and never used them for anything) were added so much later. Though so was yellow but it's a primary color... So no I got no clue.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by QGamer » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:53 pm

I come in 7 colors, what am I?
An insterter, obviously.

Now that I think about it, also science packs & non-empty barrels fit the bill

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by henke37 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:42 am

Am I strange for calling science packs "flasks"?

And to me some of the questions have grammar problems with all but one answer. What does a VERBer do? Why, it VERBs of course! A pump pumps, an inserter inserts. It's in their names.

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by lackyb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:16 am

Great update as always, the language inconsistencies never really bothered me, I guess I just got used to it.

On the subject of nomenclature and consistency, in Friday Facts 256 https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-256 there is the reveal of the Belt Immunity armour equipment.

PLEASE don't actually name it 'Belt Immunity'. In this world shields would be called 'Damage Immunity', Exoskeleton = 'Speed Enhancer' etc.

I submit the equipment should be called 'Hover Boots' or 'Belt Boots' or even 'Belt Skates', anything but 'Belt immunity'.

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by KingIonTrueLove » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:29 am

I've never used any capsule in this game, even though I probably have over 1k hours in it, but I feel like if the poison capsule was called 'Poison Grenade' I would have probably ended up using some by now.

Why? I'm not sure... maybe there just never was that much interest in lobbing 'capsules' around...
or maybe the terminology was vague enough that I never felt like looking into it more...

or maybe I thought the poison capsule just launched poison robots like the other capsules did.
...and for some reason that idea did not sound 'awesome' to me, or I thought it would be too expensive to even *look* at the recipe for it (I have no idea what the recipe is)


To be honest, I don't know why I never was interested in capsules in general, but there is definitely some unconscious stuff that went into my head that made the link between 'poison capsule' to 'this is just a poison grenade in disguise' never happen until now.

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by your_name_here » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:05 am

The first thing I thought of when I read this post was the tooltip "it can also be used to mine any kind of path." I think that one has tripped up a lot of people. The verb mine is very weird here, and only makes sense in terms of the game verbs. It's also challenging because you don't necessarily expect concrete to be the thing you use to deconstruct concrete, so the concept it's describing, even when well worded, is novel. So you don't really have contextual help to understand "what the heck does 'mine a path' mean?" It's also not great because "path" has a lot of meanings. Maybe "walkway" or "floor" would be better.
henke37 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:42 am
Am I strange for calling science packs "flasks"?

And to me some of the questions have grammar problems with all but one answer. What does a VERBer do? Why, it VERBs of course! A pump pumps, an inserter inserts. It's in their names.
does a pumpjack pump or jack?

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by 5thHorseman » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:09 am

It wasn't asked, but I call inserters "arms" and the buildings that make stuff "factories" even though I know that's wrong.

And if the official name of underground belts becomes "Undergroundies" I'm going to uninstall the game, throw my computer away, move to a remote desert island and start eating fish raw with only a volleyball for company.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by Permittivity » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:25 am

At some level, part of the confusion is that some of these terms overlap.

For example, I place machines from my inventory. Machines get into my inventory when I build them by hand or collect them from chests. When I'm setting up furnaces to handle my belt of ore, I am constructing a smelter. Construction is a composition of steps. While I may place a machine, I would never say that I am placing a base as a base is something that is built up over many steps.

If I knew the player had an assembler in their inventory, I'd tell them to place it. If, however, the assembler needed to be sourced from somewhere else and then placed, I'd tell the player to construct one.

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Re: Friday Facts #265 - Nomenclature & Steam networking

Post by Selvek » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:37 am

ledow wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:29 pm

While we are there, you REALLY need an easy way to see all the ways to produce a certain item (e.g. sulphur / cobalt in Bob's Mod)... I hate having to refer to a wiki to get an in-game answer.
Try FNEI (https://mods.factorio.com/mods/npo6ka/FNEI). It lets you search for any item and find all the recipes to make it, and all the recipes it's used in.

I'm working through Seablock and FNEI is a lifesaver. I'm constantly amazed that I somehow made it through Bob's a couple years ago without it!

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