Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

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Unclebod
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Unclebod » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:45 pm

Nanolathe wrote:
Unclebod wrote:
dog80 wrote:but tbh - very few people even use the research queue mod - and everybody here just wants a new *thing that is supposed to make their lives easier - which it actually doesnt... choosing a new technology takes about 3 seconds in time...

What would be an important number to consider is those that know about the Auto-Research mod and actively wish to not use it. Such a number is more difficult to ascertain however, which is a pity. You can at least put my mark down as "I do not want a research queue or automatic research".
Don't forget to add those rhat of different causes don't use mods at all and still would like a research queue

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Bokkie » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:48 pm

provet wrote:Chill, m'kay?
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by ctrlaltdel02 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:19 pm

darq wrote:How about adding "Research queue" technology that need space science pack?
Best idea I think, +1 from me on this.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by ske » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:11 pm

Nanolathe wrote:You realise that 1 in 20 can also be written as 5%? Generally speaking, most would say that is "very few".
Those few users are the power users that one should keep happy as they drag along the rest.

If you just rely on metrics and A/B testing you'll end up with a copy of Windows 8.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Oktokolo » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:34 pm

Unclebod wrote:
Nanolathe wrote:Yes, just 50000+ downloads. Plus 10000+ downlads of autoresearch mod. I'd say its 1 out of 20 that uses that type of mods That is in most cases not "very few".
You realise that 1 in 20 can also be written as 5%? Generally speaking, most would say that is "very few".
I would expect, that for most, who are not involved in a presidential election campaign, sixty thousand people are not very few.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Tricorius » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:09 am

So, I started a new Death World over the weekend and found something relevant.

The *only* real tech choice I had to make was going heavy military early since I only had one reachable oil spot. Not patch, no...not a cluster of oil. A single oil well able to host a single pump jack. It started at 5.2/s and it’s now down to 2/s. I’ve only found three more wells after massive radar-ing in all directions.

I had to push heavy military so I could even push out to get that single oil well. Then I had to maximize my minuscule blue science for oil efficiency and modular armor.

The only real choice was between military and tech (I go bots first if I don’t have to fight to survive). I’m barely into construction robots. And I’m starting to get hammered. So I now have to wall up and pray the trickle of oil will help me get power armor so I can get to those other 3 wells and a new iron patch.

A research queue would not have robbed me of any of the fun of this game. In fact, it would have helped prevent my labs being idle during huge (in-game days-long battles) trying to conquer land. I'm not so sure a huge part of the joy of Factorio comes from the tech tree. It's really just a means to an end. I'm not sure making it more granular is a great option either, that just means I'm interrupted more often. I'm not sure making it less granular is the best solution. That just means I'm waiting a LOT longer before I can start chunks of my factory. It's definitely not a simple issue with a simple solution.
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fur_and_whiskers
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by fur_and_whiskers » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:55 am

I find the reasons given for pulling the Research Queue feature from the update weak at best.
Implement it, make it an option and have it default off if you deem that best.
Others have underlined why its better to have it available in the game than not.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by kulkutautinen » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:17 am

My first post here, because this is important. Research queue is important and it will have much more positive impact than negative.

I played all the achievements and the biggest hurdle for me in sub 8h run was that I forgot to choose a new research from time to time. Then my factory was running for nothing and I had to replay at least once just because there was no research queue.

Put it in options, or allow after 1st playthrough, but reconsider your decision.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by layus » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:20 am

Hi,

The research queue is not as important to me as a better way to see key research items. It often takes me a long time to find "automation 2" for example in the long list of available research. Some researches are key o a lot of others, and somehow I fail to see them even with the search tree...

Just my two cents ;-)

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by mexmer » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:42 am

kinda disapointed it gets removed, that means i still will need to download mod for that.

although i can understand reasons, why it's removed.

still research needs more love in general, either it's tree itself, search function or the fact, that research with prerequisities (let's say up to 5), should be a thing (eg. mini research queue).

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by LoSboccacc » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:55 am

there's one important feature of a research queue: queuing a high tier technology and have the dependency resolved by the program

lacking that having a queue is kinda pointless as you noted, but if you did not implement the automation then of course it looked pointless without it!

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by nuhll » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:38 am

@devs

add it as an unlockable archivement if you finished all research or if you finished the game first time, so every new map u start have the new feature, easy fix. :roll:

ske
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by ske » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:49 am

LoSboccacc wrote:there's one important feature of a research queue: queuing a high tier technology and have the dependency resolved by the program

lacking that having a queue is kinda pointless as you noted, but if you did not implement the automation then of course it looked pointless without it!
Everybody who's not playing the game for the first time would probably want that.

Revisiting the list of cons:
  • The newly unlocked recipes might be overlooked (It is solvable by some kind of pop-up, but it is far from perfect).
  • It removes the joy of looking at the result of the research and of picking a new thing that will be the next one to do.
  • It adds to the feeling of just going through a to-do list without having much to say about it.
  • The queue has to be changed a lot as the priorities change.
Do players have to always fill the queue? No? Won't most of the points given go away then if they only put in one item? Every point seems to be a symptom of something else.

If you think about it deeper, there is a root cause that this game has no soul. It only has tools and tools to build tools and everything. The research is a tool that uses some tools to provide more tools. The premise of the game is to build the rocket and then immediately quit the game. But who does that? Maybe 5%. There needs to be more... soul (for a lack of a better word).

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by mrvn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:28 pm

The thing I miss most about a research queue is selecting a goal that is not directly achievable.

For example I want to research Logistic Train Network stations. That needs trains and train stops and a whole bunch of previous techs. But hey, I want trains. That is my goal.

Now I have to open the tech tree, find LTN stations, click at them, select the first tech I can research and start that. When that finishes I have to do it all over again. With more complex tech trees half the time the tech finished pops up I'm sitting there: WTF did I research Gas Cracking 2 for? Where was I going with this? Or: I want nuclear power, where is that nuclear power icon hidden again?

My point being is that sometimes you have a distant goal. The game should allow you selecting a goal and every time the tech screen pops up, as it should after every tech (unless you toggle the option, it's there for a reason), the game should show the goal and suggest what tech to research next to achieve it.

So the game doesn't so much need a research queue as a simple goal (or goals). Nothing much needs to change in the tech screen except the way the game suggests the next tech. A repeat player should be able to simply press "research" to continue without having to hunt around the tech tree every time. If tech popups are turned off the research could just continue towards the goal. They got turned off for a reason after all. Only repeat players will turn this off.

Note: why can't tech popups be enabled in multiplayer mode? The game doesn't have to pause.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Festmester » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:38 pm

I don't think many cons on the research queue thing are relevant if it's an ADVANCED option you manually have to enable in a settings menu.

Done and done, right? Only con I see is that devs have to manage both instead of a single feature.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Astree » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:14 pm

I don't often post, but I'll do it this time.
My first reaction after reading the FF254 was "did the devs already play the game past red science ?" :lol:
I thought I was hearing a noob crying "please ! Make the game easier ! I'm lost with all of those things !".
Maybe if you didn't like it is because it was poorly done ? Only for beginners ? :P

I think I understand the reasons that lead you to throw away the research queue, but they are only good reasons for new players, and bad reasons for the others.
Cons become pros as you get to better know the game.
Then why don't you put it as a research : the first advantage will be that the new player WILL have to think about "what's that ?" before lauching the research. The second one will be that it's not available at the starting point. And the third one will be to stay as an option.

And, last but not least, you seem to believe that the "joy" of the game is in the research tree ? Could I tell you how you're wrong ? The tech tree brings no fun in the game, no joy, not more than any progress tree in any other game. We need it, but we don't play Factorio for its tech tree.
I play on death worlds, space expansion mod, most of the time, I fight aliens (or am I the alien ?) to expand my territory and reach the next ore patch I need. I want to be able to target a research, I often build huge lab settings with science storage, and when I focus on the tech tree , I stop playing while I'm going to the new tech I want, because it's so annoying having to so often stop playing, and open again the tech tree to launch the next research you need to reach your goal. No "joy" at all. If I could queue them, it would be much more fun, something like "ok, time to go to laser turrets". And in end game, while doing infinite research, opening the tech tree becomes a pain. The joy is in watching the tech progress bar, seeing it quickly grow then suddenly stop because of a lack of iron, not by selecting a tech or watching a tree.

Edit : as stated by others, the queue isn't the question, wich is "we need a tool to target a goal and keep it highlighted on the research windows as long as we don't change our mind".

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by holyboly » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:20 pm

Right now I'm just disappointed with how the experienced players, who really looked forward to this feature, are treated. ("I don't like it, so it will be removed")

I would appreciate a research queue for various reasons:
1) No one who played the game already to endgame and took his time to look at the research etc. gives a **** about the research in future games. Its just.. "yeah get the next done... which? i don't care"
2) After I finished a 1 SPM Megabase recently, it was a pain in the *** clicking on a new research every 5 minutes..
3) It is already implemented..........

So please just give us more experienced players the CHOICE to enable it or maybe even research it. It could be a default disabled option.. so no new players are harmed in any way.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by dog80 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:31 pm

holyboly wrote:Right now I'm just disappointed with how the experienced players, who really looked forward to this feature, are treated. ("I don't like it, so it will be removed")

I would appreciate a research queue for various reasons:
1) No one who played the game already to endgame and took his time to look at the research etc. gives a **** about the research in future games. Its just.. "yeah get the next done... which? i don't care"
2) After I finished a 1 SPM Megabase recently, it was a pain in the *** clicking on a new research every 5 minutes..
3) It is already implemented..........

So please just give us more experienced players the CHOICE to enable it or maybe even research it. It could be a default disabled option.. so no new players are harmed in any way.
experienced players dont buy the game a second time - so dont bother them
- i agree that it feels bad - somehow sure you can build your superdupermegabase and have hundreds of hours in there - but in the long term this will loose its fun rather quickly - there has to be action - something challenging... and somehow i think the devs dont care about enemies etc anymore or weapon balancing because you actually dont need any weapons just make tower creep np -- problem is that you can either turn the settings so "hard" that it is unbelievebly annoying to get started and enemies are everywhere... but when you make it through that magical point you can obliterate any enemy... so its not a real threat anymore... also you just build artillery and lazer walls and you dont have to worry about ANYTHING anymore... --- the balancing of enemies is horrible - better get to that - than worrying what a fking research queue would change to the gameplay --- dudes

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by dstensnes » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:09 pm

I'm fine with dropping the research queue. There is mods that implements it, so people can use one of those. With tighter mod integration and ability to fetch mods from the server, as well as enable/disable mods per savegame should improve the experience well enough I'd say. But maybe there is a better suggestion to be found in this: Why not ship the game with a few mods already bundled, like research queue. That way you can turn that mod on/off as you please, and the developers themselves get to use the mod-api such that they too can get a new perspective on things. I would argue that it would be easier to extend the base game with more scenarios by being able to turn mods on/off too, and still allow the core game to be lean.

This might also help ease the thought people are having that the game itself needs to have every function built in to the vanilla game. And it would make it easy for some other mods to take their place if that mod does it better.

If you really disagree, please let me know, but please also tell me why!

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by j3robins » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:05 pm

I agree that the research queue isn't that great in practice. Where I've seen it succeed however, and what I'd live to see in Factorio, is picking a future technology (e.g. Solar panels) and have the queue auto-select the prerequisite technologies until you have the selected tech.

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