Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

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calmari71
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by calmari71 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:58 pm

I would have thought that you guys would have learned from the belts vs. bots fiasco that saying "xyz is not the fun way to play" is a sure way to start a community riot.

Guess I thought wrong.

I have several hundred hours in the game. NOTHING about the research tree is exciting, fulfilling or gives me "joy". At this point it is exactly a checklist of stuff that i need to do to get to the good parts of building my base. Searching the tech tree for something is the opposite of joy. Its time wasted when i could be building.

I understand your points as it relates to a new player. However that same analysis doesn't apply to seasoned players. We know the tech tree. We know what unlocks what. Most of us probably have a sequence that we always do anyway. Factorio is about automation, so let us automate our research, too!!!

The solution to that IMO is not to axe the entire feature. How about instead making it an option that you can set in the options and default it to disabled.

waveman55
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by waveman55 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:27 am

I have hundreds of hours in this game and use the research queue mod all the time now. A mod that has been downloaded over 50,000 times.

It looks like you have already spent the resources to develop this quality of life enhancement as you promised.

Your pro list might also include:
Queue assists players in vanilla speed runs.
Queue in game means one less mod required.
Queue is a quality of life improvement for experienced players.

A tiny list of options for implementing it:
Make it off by default in the settings.
Make it a research item.

Ultimately it is your game. Quality of life enhancements adds to the longevity of your player base, and their willingness to buy your next game.

ray4ever
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by ray4ever » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:50 am

Even though I can understand the decision to remove the research queue from a new players perspective I still don't like it from a seasoned players point of view.
So I would suggest to make the research queue optional so you have to click it somewhere deep in the options where no new player would normally look.

Prembil
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Prembil » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:51 am

I think you're right,
you won't get that good feel of the things you've researched....

But I also think that you could implement something like this into the infinite research...
I mean, I could select one thing to research (like the flying robots speed) and it would continue researching this branch until I swap to something else.

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irbork
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by irbork » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:22 am

I was really excited about research queue feature. I don't understand why remove a feature that had been already developed. If you worry about new players you could disable queue functionality as default option.

HalfPastZulu
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by HalfPastZulu » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:19 am

How coincidental that the queue removal and mod portal updates are in the same FFF, or is it a coincidence at all?

I just feel that this is being purposefully left out to justify all the work on modding ( aka the hackers way in to your system )

BlackLight
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by BlackLight » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:35 am

As an average player with (660+ hours on steam and probably the same bevor the steam release) here is my opinion:
Please leave in the "research queue". You can hide it behind a research item or in the settings itself.
Don't just think about the newbies, but also about the matured players, please!

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Merssedes » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:52 am

For all who ask to make queue as option: how do you see managing researches in multiplayer for people with different settings?
PS. Personally, i'd like to have queue too.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Merguin » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:24 am

NOOOOO do not remove the research queue! Make it an optional feature, thats off by default, so players who play the same since ancient times can actually activate it, if they want to!
Do not remove that queue! Please!

offtheball
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by offtheball » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:54 am

I'm not gonna get too worked up about it, but I think there are a lot of legitimate uses for the queue. Different people play the game differently, and Factorio is great because it's fun for so many different people.

I'd like to see it in the game.

qjm123
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by qjm123 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:52 pm

Research queue, please.

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Oktokolo
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Oktokolo » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:28 pm

HalfPastZulu wrote:How coincidental that the queue removal and mod portal updates are in the same FFF, or is it a coincidence at all?
The word you searched for is "burrying". They added some uncontroversial stuff (the mod portal changes) to an FFF that would else have been negative only.

I wonder, why they really decided to waste the new queue implementation, as it now just looks like a social experiment trying to replicate the bots vs. belts outcries.
HalfPastZulu wrote:I just feel that this is being purposefully left out to justify all the work on modding ( aka the hackers way in to your system )
I got the impression that they did a good job separating each mod in its own sandbox and isolating them from the rest of the game and system. Do you know about any security-related bugs?
Merssedes wrote:For all who ask to make queue as option: how do you see managing researches in multiplayer for people with different settings?
It would be set to whatever the host decided for every player on the server. Same as with mods and their settings, that are planned to be auto-syced when trying to connect to a server with a different loadout or config.

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ownlyme
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by ownlyme » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:17 pm

dont remove the research queue!
if it's really such a big issue, add a flat box above the research box that shows previous unlocked technologies.
BUT DONT REMOVE IT, AT ANY COST!

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dog80
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by dog80 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:34 pm

but tbh - very few people even use the research queue mod - and everybody here just wants a new *thing that is supposed to make their lives easier - which it actually doesnt... choosing a new technology takes about 3 seconds in time...

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Gergely
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Gergely » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:43 pm

WithAnF wrote:BUT, I have a solution for you! This could be an opportunity for Wube! Release the code for this amazing feature as the first "Official Mod"!
The first official mod?! Don't make me laugh.

Have you seen this?

I agree though. They should.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by abregado » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:03 pm

Vandroiy wrote:People only ask for a research queue because the granularity of techs is too high. Fix the issue, not the symptom!

For example, on the oil and train stuff. It's like every little item or recipe has its own research. Just group them together! Who cares about the option of saving a tiny but of resources by researching trains, but not train stops or rail signals? Who delays plastics after researching oil processing?
Ive been wanting to make a modified vanilla tech tree like this for a while to experiment. I call this idea an "Activity based Technology Tree" and i have not seen a game implement such a tree before. Each node of the tree is designed with a particular set of player builds/actions in mind, which they experiment with while the next (much larger) node is being researched. Each node would need one final product.

If you wanted to have a go at breaking the tree into a much smaller number of nodes, send me the list so I can have a look and make a mini-mod.
or
If you have seen this type of tech tree in another game, do let me know.

As for your other point, the "limited choice/real paths" is something I explored in my Trunked Tech mod. Check it out and let me know what you think. PDF of the tech tree is available in the download.
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/tech-trunk

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Jap2.0 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:10 pm

WithAnF wrote:Enough people have already made the arguments here in this thread necessary to show that the research queue is a desired feature. And to show that there are a lot of Pros and a only few cons. But I feel it important enough to add my 2 bitcents.

Dearest kovarex,

The only cons you really mentioned -- complication, lack of joy, etc -- really only apply to new players. This feature has been teased multiple times and I know many people -- myself included -- were looking forward to it. In addition to a new, cleaner UI, I think it might have been the most anticipated feature of the upcoming release. Finally, the team was obviously divided on the issue or there wouldn't have been the condition of making you declare that it was your fault.

To sum up, you are being a stupid git.

BUT, I have a solution for you! This could be an opportunity for Wube! Release the code for this amazing feature as the first "Official Mod"! Make players search it out in the portal. Make them make the decision to lose the joy and add complexity to the game. But let this mod show the modders what kind of amazing things can be done! Also this would have the effect of making those of us that have been waiting for this for months feel a little less like we were just told we were not getting our promised candy, bcs mom decided it was going to spoil supper.
No. Mods are written in Lua, while this is C++, and Rseding has said that the current mods have more features than their implementation.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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provet
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by provet » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:40 pm

Come on now guys, let's be civilized about this.
I'm 100% sure Kovarex meant well with his decision to take the game in a interactive and fun direction rather than a tech waiting game.
Most of the research (besides repetitive bonus research) provide lots of new content to explore, so it shouldn't be meant for "afk researching" anyway.

And besides, it doesn't make sense that (some of you) start name calling and such over such a small thing as an
action that requires your attention most of the time; once every 5-30 min.

Chill, m'kay?

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Unclebod » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:11 pm

dog80 wrote:but tbh - very few people even use the research queue mod - and everybody here just wants a new *thing that is supposed to make their lives easier - which it actually doesnt... choosing a new technology takes about 3 seconds in time...
Yes, just 50000+ downloads. Plus 10000+ downlads of autoresearch mod.
I'd say its 1 out of 20 that uses that type of mods
That is in most cases not "very few".

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Nanolathe
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Nanolathe » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:24 pm

Unclebod wrote:
dog80 wrote:but tbh - very few people even use the research queue mod - and everybody here just wants a new *thing that is supposed to make their lives easier - which it actually doesnt... choosing a new technology takes about 3 seconds in time...
Yes, just 50000+ downloads. Plus 10000+ downlads of autoresearch mod.
I'd say its 1 out of 20 that uses that type of mods
That is in most cases not "very few".
You realise that 1 in 20 can also be written as 5%? Generally speaking, most would say that is "very few".

What would be an important number to consider is those that know about the Auto-Research mod and actively wish to not use it. Such a number is more difficult to ascertain however, which is a pity. You can at least put my mark down as "I do not want a research queue or automatic research".

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