Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

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Vandroiy
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Vandroiy »

People only ask for a research queue because the granularity of techs is too high. Fix the issue, not the symptom!

For example, on the oil and train stuff. It's like every little item or recipe has its own research. Just group them together! Who cares about the option of saving a tiny but of resources by researching trains, but not train stops or rail signals? Who delays plastics after researching oil processing?

It's like with every new feature, techs get added, even if this turns more and more techs into just another click to get something off the list. From my playthroughs, I can't remember choosing any but a few key techs consciously. Instead, I usually just click on the first available option; at best, I have a quick look to check that it's not totally useless in the given scenario. Sometimes, I just research early game techs so they stop cluttering the list of choices. IMO, that's not really how choosing research should work.

Of course, this brings us to the old topic of the many science colors and how there isn't really much choice in terms of research order, since you're almost always limited by which science packs are automated so far, greatly limiting the choices. I'm still in favor of reducing the count of science packs and increasing the science cost of mid-game research instead, so that there are more viable choices in research.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by deef0000dragon1 »

Vandroiy wrote:People only ask for a research queue because the granularity of techs is too high. Fix the issue, not the symptom!

For example, on the oil and train stuff. It's like every little item or recipe has its own research. Just group them together! Who cares about the option of saving a tiny but of resources by researching trains, but not train stops or rail signals? Who delays plastics after researching oil processing?

It's like with every new feature, techs get added, even if this turns more and more techs into just another click to get something off the list. From my playthroughs, I can't remember choosing any but a few key techs consciously. Instead, I usually just click on the first available option; at best, I have a quick look to check that it's not totally useless in the given scenario. Sometimes, I just research early game techs so they stop cluttering the list of choices. IMO, that's not really how choosing research should work.

Of course, this brings us to the old topic of the many science colors and how there isn't really much choice in terms of research order, since you're almost always limited by which science packs are automated so far, greatly limiting the choices. I'm still in favor of reducing the count of science packs and increasing the science cost of mid-game research instead, so that there are more viable choices in research.
I actualy disagree with this. I think that the higher the granularity the better. It allows someone to get only what they really need at one point in time or another. Honestly, I would not be against MORE granularity in most cases. The only exception possibly being modules. You dont really get too much from separating them other than making them a resource/research sink. Everything else is unique enough to where I like how many researches there are.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Vandroiy »

deef0000dragon1 wrote:I actualy disagree with this. I think that the higher the granularity the better. It allows someone to get only what they really need at one point in time or another. Honestly, I would not be against MORE granularity in most cases. The only exception possibly being modules. You dont really get too much from separating them other than making them a resource/research sink. Everything else is unique enough to where I like how many researches there are.
How often does a player research automated rail transportation (train stops), doesn't want to research rail signals, and still cares about the rail signal research's tiny science cost? Compare this to the number of playthroughs where somebody scrolls around in the science list, notices the signals are still missing, and clicks them for obvious reasons.

Granularity is nice when there is an actual decision to be made that actually changes something about the game. What does this kind of granularity possibly change about the game? It's not like people seriously decide whether of not to use rail signals based on their research cost, which is a fraction of what it took to make the research available. So all the granularity gets you is more clicking.
Last edited by Vandroiy on Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by WIZ4 »

No research queue? Oh no, oh no, oh no no no no no!
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Ghoulish »

Nice feature to have, doesn't bother me in the least now it's not going to be added, the 2nd point is quite true, it's always nice to look at the tech tree and see how research in interlinked, and what you want to pick next.
Last edited by Ghoulish on Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by hoylemd »

I'm also disappointed that the queue has been cancelled.

If you're not going to have a queue, then can you please make the 'research finished' screen be less of an interruption? It's really frustrating to be working on something closely and suddenly he snapped into a very different context. Notify me that research is done, but let me choose when to go into the science selection screen

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by g-box »

Killed it? Murderer! I'm never researching Kovarex enrichment process again...

But yah, another vote for the research queue. It's an optional feature that experienced players would benefit from.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Mike5000 »

The auto-research mod is useful and flexible.

It can do what you were trying to do but it can also work in many different ways. I use it in different ways at different times.

If your new design was no good, why not copy a good one?

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by deef0000dragon1 »

Vandroiy wrote:How often does a player research automated rail transportation (train stops), doesn't want to research rail signals, and still cares about the rail signal research's tiny science cost? Compare this to the number of playthroughs where somebody scrolls around in the science list, notices the signals are still missing, and clicks them for obvious reasons.

Granularity is nice when there is an actual decision to be made that actually changes something about the game. What does this kind of granularity possibly change about the game? It's not like people seriously decide whether of not to use rail signals based on their research cost, which is a fraction of what it took to make the research available. So all the granularity gets you is more clicking.
A good chunk of the time, I dont make massive rail systems. I only make what I need for simple loops to a bit further away ore patches. Especially mid game. I have so many things that I am focusing on that I want to be able to optimize what I need and when. If I dont need signals right now, than I am happy to not have to wait the extra time for them.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by ledow »

How about not so much a research queue, as a research plan?

If you bother to set it up, it'll still stop on each research but you just need to "accept" for it to pick up the next research in your grand scheme.

Hell, you could export the plans as special blueprints...

I know I ALWAYS get so distracted I don't see research finish and then wonder why the factory is all silent, and I know that I always manually pick research and therefore mess up and go "the long way round" to get to the things I actually need when I realise that I've kicked off a research that I can't use because to utilise it properly, I need something else first.

I don't think you should push it to new users, they shouldn't use it, I agree. But established users should be able to craft a research plan if they so desire so from the first second, they can focus on just getting and building.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Doomquill »

Please. Please please implement Research Queue. I would argue that the 52000 downloads of the Research Queue mod and the 137000 downloads of the Auto Research mod proclaim a desperate need for the functionality to be in vanilla. Please don't give up on it. I know you think it's unwieldy or confusing, but for the thousands of people with hundreds of hours in the game doing research one at a time is a slog beyond measure. Please :(

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by bman212121 »

Godmave wrote:The thing is optional, if you don't like it don't use it.
It is always "not good" if a single person decides what others need/want ;)


It's ok to say "this is the way 'we' would like you to play" and disable it by default, but an option for the player to decide would be better.
This seems to be the common theme as of late. Early on and throughout the game decisions were not being forced, but lately it seems like the devs want to force players down a specific path for whatever reason. I don't really understand it or why the minority seems to win these arguments, but not much we can do about it. At this point they are probably better off focusing on just releasing the game and not trying to alter it into a corner.

I just hope you left the parts in, so that there can be mods rectifying your "failure" in this decision.
There already is a mod for this, and quite frankly the mod is still miles ahead of this implementation. I was kind of hoping that there would be better integration of the existing mod as it's really good, but a bit award to use since the mod is in it's own menu.

But either way this reason alone is why I always insist on playing LAN games with mods, and will ONLY play MP games which allow the player to customize it how they see fit. If this were a AAA game the playerbase would just be in uproar and either suck it up or leave for another game. This is pretty common with MMOs or all of these "ranked" FPS games which require the game to be exactly the same. But thankfully it's not, and Factorio is still a great game core that allows people to do whatever they would prefer. I'm not sure why everyone is so enveloped in wanting to play the game as vanilla. It's fun for the first one or two playthroughs, but after that the creativity of mods is just so much better than any game could possibly be without them, because it means that each instance will be unique and tailored to the player experience. I think these latest changes are just going to further that point, less people are going to bother playing vanilla because mods just offer a better player experience.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by doktorstick »

That's some high-powered rationalizations going into the logic for removing the queue.

A handful of techs are real choices out of about 120 techs, like single-digit percentage. Everything else tends to be prereqs (forced choice) or effectively random (see Paradox of Choice) to prevent idle labs. As a long-time player, I'm probably not the only one that doesn't get "joy of looking at the result of the research" anymore. We know what it is; we know where we are going (again, except when we're mindlessly clicking the upper-left tech so we keep the labs busy).

By way of suggestion, you could add a shiny, animated mask over newly acquired recipes when you pull up the build menu. It remains animated until a mouseover event happens. (Many MMOs do this when new items pop into your bags.)
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by JadeSpider »

I think enough people have clearly stated how nice the research queue feature is and how removing it is a terrible decision for everyone other than new players. What I would like to know is, what playtesting process did you you follow to reach this decision? From the way the article is written, it sounded like you didn't playtest with anyone except people on the development team. While that may be fine for small tweaks, making decisions about large changes should involve broader feedback. So, who else was involved in this process? Was there a forum thread or something?

That aside, why did you decide to remove the feature completely instead of a compromise? What if the queue size was only 2 or even 1? The biggest annoyance with research is when you are trying to play the game and get interrupted with "choose a new thing right now or your labs will idle until you do". That can be alleviated by having any queue at all, even if the size is only 1. Then you have some window of time to choose the next research instead of needing to do it in an instant.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by fendy3002 »

Stede wrote:Come on guys - handle the research queue like Civilization and stop trying to reinvent every wheel you see. I love you guys for making better wheels, but I don't think your proclivity for it is helping you on this issue. I've mixed feelings on killing it - I would like to see it, with a popup that can be checked to disable (for MP games) - but I generally trust you guys on optimizing your systems. I just have a really hard time seeing that this was necessary & good.
Exactly what I think, it's useful when I want to beeline tech in civ. Though not easily comparable since civ is turn based, I think some sort of notification can work well. One of the use case maybe to beeline tech for bots and steel furnace.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Ohz »

Vandroiy wrote:
deef0000dragon1 wrote:I actualy disagree with this. I think that the higher the granularity the better. It allows someone to get only what they really need at one point in time or another. Honestly, I would not be against MORE granularity in most cases. The only exception possibly being modules. You dont really get too much from separating them other than making them a resource/research sink. Everything else is unique enough to where I like how many researches there are.
How often does a player research automated rail transportation (train stops), doesn't want to research rail signals, and still cares about the rail signal research's tiny science cost? Compare this to the number of playthroughs where somebody scrolls around in the science list, notices the signals are still missing, and clicks them for obvious reasons.

Granularity is nice when there is an actual decision to be made that actually changes something about the game. What does this kind of granularity possibly change about the game? It's not like people seriously decide whether of not to use rail signals based on their research cost, which is a fraction of what it took to make the research available. So all the granularity gets you is more clicking.
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by TfGuy44 »

I assumed that the ability to queue up research would be something that was unlocked with a new tech.

If it cost, say, 300 red and green science, then it would put it past the new-player barrier.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by yohannc »

Why don't add highlights to new items ?
Remove them when you stay 1 second over them.
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Xuhybrid »

Why would you need to kill the queue? You didn't give a valid reason at all.

What about a version of the queue that allows me to pick Oil processing at the start of a brand new game, and the game just picks the next research in line until it has all the requirements?

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by kamiza »

Mod portal looking better and better, great job!
As well is the rest of the game. Can't wait for the UI changes!

Now onto the sass
I hope your decision to cancel the queue was due to how it was still too "manual" and you have come up with a better way to automate research as in the true nature of the game, eh?

To be honest, even the way research is now, get so focused into building that even when a research does complete, either A: I miss it and go on waisting time could have been researching, or B: I just want anything being researched so I'm not waisting time and click the first thing I see.

I still feel something would have to change

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