Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Regular reports on Factorio development.
Post Reply
mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3261
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by mrvn » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:23 pm

mcdjfp wrote:Can I vote for leaving things alone. While there does seem to be something "clumsy?" about blueprints, most of these ideas run into two problems.

1. Linking blueprints to their library entry is a very bad idea, at least from my point of view. I will frequently make a slight alteration to a blueprint before placing it. I do not want these 1 use changes transferred back to the original. While there may be workarounds, I am concerned that they may be worse than the present situation.
Example: I have a uranium station for outposts with a uranium train, a sulfuric acid train, and a passenger train stop. In one game, there was a uranium deposit next to an already developed oil field. As a result, I grabbed my uranium station blueprint, removed the unneeded passenger station and stamped it down. Then I deleted that copy as it was not needed anymore. Under the linked blueprint system, the original would no longer exist as it would have been updated as I made changes.

2. A persistent hotbar is useless to me. I want a different hotbar for each save. First, my early game hotbar is different than my late game hotbar. If it is persistent, then every time I switch saves (say between a late game mega-factory, and a newer save I am working on) I will have to reset my hotbars. I will go from setting it up once per game (required anyways as a hotbar carried over from my last game will be designed for unresearched items) with gradual updates as research is completed, to having to set it up every time I switch saves. That is definately not an improvement. Then there are mods, and each mod combination will need its own persistent hotbar because of modded items (What happens when an item/blueprint doesn't exist in a particular set of mods?) Of course if a persistent hotbar is forced, every time I load a set of mods I will have to rebuild my hotbars by hand due to the invalid items. Either way, the hotbar isn't really persistent, and I have likely gained an annoyance.

I do like many of the other changes/ideas from recent Fridays. It is only this one, and the previous hotbar related Friday fact that worry me.

Edit:
Personally I like the idea mentioned a couple of times earlier where there would be two types of blueprints. The blueprint in the library. And a second temporary blueprint that would only exist in that specific game and would ask me before updating the original. Perhaps when deleted it could ask it I wanted to sync the changes or not (defaulting to no).
I very much agree there. I too often "edit" blueprints before placement. To preserve the original this often means placing the blueprint somewhere, deleting the things not wanted, taking a new blueprint, placing that where it is wanted and then clean it all up again.

The proposals seem to make things worse and don't address the problem of blueprints. The library (other than the sorting issue) isn't bad.
So here is my proposal:

1) The blueprint library keeps its different sections for game and player blueprints for sharing and keeping a global library.
2) A new section is added for players private blueprints and is per game.
3) New blueprints start in the players private section. The tool belt / quick bar just references them like it will just reference the inventory.
4) Blueprints can be used from anywhere. Pressing Q on a selected blueprint will return it from where it came from (not drop a copy of it into the inventory).
5) Blueprints can be moved between sections in the library like now.
6) Blueprints can be edited the same way in every section. No need to copy it to the inventory for editing.
7) Editing a blueprint shows the section it is in and has an option to change the section. Pull down menu?
8) Blueprint editing gets a "copy" button creating a private blueprint with the same content.
9) quick copy blueprints get destroyed when Q is pressed but can be places in the tool belt, library or containers to preserve them.
10) Blueprint editing gets a "use once" button making a copy with the same properties as a quick copy blueprint (destroy after use).
11) Blueprint editing uses a separate surface in sandbox mode like The Blueprint Lab mod has. This allows moving around and zooming. Placing new entities or removing them. Using the destruction planner or even adding other blueprints.

doodoori2
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:54 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by doodoori2 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:28 pm

I like Proposal 2. and what do you think about versioning(history) for each blurprint library

Each blueprint can be treated like an item.
Some blueprints may appear to be on inventory only, but may have links with invisible libraries.
The history of blueprint makes it clear that all connected blueprint can change together.
Blueprint history should be not shared with other players.
A blueprint library can be created by duplicating specific version.
User can share it with specific version. with unique-id. (uuid or combinations of hash-data, timestamp, owner and etc)
If user look at another user's blueprint library (box or try to use), it replicates to local and do not link with other user anymore.
blueprint.png
blueprint.png (767.03 KiB) Viewed 1558 times

rldml
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:38 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by rldml » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:32 pm

I hope, i understood the problem and would prefer the first solution, but with an important change:

Make a hidden "only in this game existing"-library for blueprints not linked to any other library.

If you do that, every blueprint in the quickbar refers to one library. If such a blueprint is removed from the quickbar without storing it into another library, it should be deleted in the hidden library too.

This should make it easier to realize a solution like this, because you have just to consider one type of blueprint...

mcdjfp
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 12:42 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by mcdjfp » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:26 pm

I just wanted to add that most of the clumsiness of blueprints seemed to be in the UI and not with the blueprints themselves. An example of what I mean. There are filters on the Deconstruction Planner. You can set it to filter natural objects, or you can select items 1 by 1, but not both at the same time. This means I have to manually set up all of the natural objects in addition to the power poles, storage chests and roboports (to make sure they don't get taken down before the rest of the outpost). And why take down all the rocks and trees nearby if I am leaving?

Also, please don't autodelete blueprints when Q is pressed. Quite frequently I am working on something, and a wave of biters causes a problem. I don't have time to properly store the blueprint because I need those combat robots (of whatever type) now. I need that blueprint back 30 seconds from now when the crisis is over and building resumes.

Dschimmi
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by Dschimmi » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:00 pm

My Opinion on the BPs? I really would be able to put BP-Books into BP-Books. I really want to organize the BPs as like:
  • Rails
    • Stations
      • 1-4-1
        • Loading
          Unloading
        3-8-0
        • Loading
          Unloading
    • Tracks
      • 2 Lanes, 2 Way
        2 Lanes, 1 Way
I think you get the Point ...

And what i don't want to is saving Blueprints automatically to the Library (or whereever) this will mess up everything, since i have always a BP in my Quickbar wich i use often for quick Copy&Paste. Nor would i have 'em updated automatically because sometimes i just need to tweak a BP for this Situation and i don't want the "original" to be changed.

danyg
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by danyg » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:43 pm

Not sure if anyone has said this, but, PLEASE, do an Undo action after ERASE blueprints, so if now the blueprint you handle is the only copy you have of it, it WILL happen that you erase it by accident, by ctrl+right clicking on it, as it happens to me a lot, especially when is a book, I mess it up trying to edit the blueprint but, not sure how to so, and start trying until I erase it. :(

Also, there is no way to update a blueprint right? you need to clean it up and recreate it from the world. When you do so, the title and icons get erased, it will be good to have a way to do a "copy world" without losing those up.

User avatar
AlphaStrike
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by AlphaStrike » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:28 pm

Am I the only one disappointed this was about blueprints and not exploration? Glad this is being addressed but now all I can think about is how much I want expanding and exploration to be work on...

meganothing
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by meganothing » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:41 pm

Much hinges on the question whether you (i.e. Wube) will implement an direct editing function for blueprints. Obviously that wouldn't be a small feature, it might even make a sort of virtual place necessary where the BP is laid out and you can change everything.

But if you do, then the problems of handling multiple versions of the same BP would vanish because you usually wouldn't have older and newer versions of the same BP around. You always would edit the old blueprint.

If you don't see a way or don't want to do that then users need a way at creation of a new blueprint to specify that this is not a new BP, but that it replaces an already existing BP. So for example at the spot where you edit the name of the blueprint you should be able to also select which blueprint this new one replaces.

Sort of the low tech edit function. You place a BP, change what you want, then at saving specify that BP as the one to replace.

Selvek
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 4:04 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by Selvek » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:58 pm

There will be a way to do copy-paste quickly without having to create a blueprint
ThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyou!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dstensnes
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:11 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by dstensnes » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:03 pm

  • * I really like the quickbar-is-actions idea, and I think that will help modders create custom actions etc
    * I do like the 10x10 layout part and being able to select which rows are visible is nice.
    * I do not see the point with persistent quickbars though. This really depends too much on what tech you have unlocked to be useful.
I would prefer having the blueprint library as a tree-view with "folders", similar to windows explorer with directories and files. Maybe have some top level hard coded folder names like "Personal blueprint library", "Team blueprints", "Game blueprints" etc.

Quickbar-is-actions idea could also be expanded upon to have several tabs for different action types, one of which shows you the blueprint book, and allows you to select from it. With the quickbars-is-actions idea, you could even make macros for often used actions if you allow actions to have widgets as "parameters":
Station list widget shows all stations, as well as click-to-choose-every-time option. Train widget for selecting trains in a similar fashion. This would allow you to have a macro for sending your personal train to a station of your choosing by clicking quickbar-action then a station. Another quickbar-action could then send your train to it's home station without clicking a station, since you selected a station id when creating the macro instead of click-to-select-every-time action. Building such macros could be a separate "macros" category when selecting actions, allowing you to build or edit that macro from there if you want to expose such advancedness to the players.

Applying a blueprint to a quickbar slot would then just be a simplified way to set the parameter for the apply-blueprint action behind the scenes.

Personally I'm not really into blueprint-as-items, but it should be possible to implement in mods for those that want that, or where a mod would use it itself. With the new GUI i could see someone trying to implement a "Base computer"-style mod with sensors and remote controlled signal generators throughout the base, and blueprint-as-items or blueprint-on-floppy-disks or something similar being moved around the base could be a key element for something like that. For stuff like that, the macro-system described could also be really useful for controlling such a computer.

Maybe I went a bit over-the-top with these suggestions, but TL;DR:
  • * Blueprint library as a tree-widget with a preview on the right, with some actions like delete, replace above.
    * Blueprint-as-items should be possible to implement with mods.

Lithane
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:01 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by Lithane » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:12 am

To me, just having the copy and paste functionality, rather than needing a blueprint all the time, would clear up a lot of the situations where my inventory gets cluttered with random blueprints. If I had to pick one I believe option 4 sounded the best to me out of the proposed ideas.

User avatar
Lubricus
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 205
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by Lubricus » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:26 am

Lithane wrote:To me, just having the copy and paste functionality, rather than needing a blueprint all the time, would clear up a lot of the situations where my inventory gets cluttered with random blueprints. If I had to pick one I believe option 4 sounded the best to me out of the proposed ideas.
I start to think there is no need for other "big" changes than adding a copy paste functionality. And the "problem" with the updating of the library is more or less unsolvable and other variants just add's other problems.
On the other hand I think Wube have to work with the inventory management at the whole so it get easier to find stuff in the inventory, like a search function...

hpf3
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:10 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by hpf3 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:13 am

copying this from my steam post since as it says to put feedback here its probably more likely to be seen.

i think blueprints that are in the library should be deleted when held and q is pressed but i have another possibility:
blueprints could remain items but have new buttons for link(then replaced with unlink) and overwrite,

the linked blueprint would be un-linked when dropped and could either have a behind the scenes uid for identification or when a blueprint is piked up it is checked against existing ones(would need to be configurable do to some people having a lot of blueprints)

the reason the item would need to be synchronized or overwritten is for the event where a edit is made just to find out the thing you just overwrote worked a lot better, while it would still happen there would at least be more awareness of it for the old players since currently messing with your blueprints in game doesn't mess up your library one.

Pompeij
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by Pompeij » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:27 pm

Don't change the current system. I don't understand what's wrong with it.
I can sort my blueprints in the named books and know what is in there, like train stops or (nuclear) reactor setups. Having just a small icon of a book can make it a hard time hover over every book to see/read the content.
A 10 slot hotbar is like a inventory to search, not realy a change to the current system.

With the (hopefully) upcoming change to load mods on map load/server join, we need a easy and clear way to find blueprints.

Only one thing, an option to hide Blueprints, that doesn't fit to the current mods (as you implement the mods on map loading). Maybe there needs to be an option per Blueprint, if the system doesn't know the process cycle does not match the mods.
Or keep the old system as a mod, managed by you, the developers.

ctrl + c sounds nice.
Q to delete, ppl will cry at the beginning :D

Greetings Pompeij

CattyNebulart
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by CattyNebulart » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:48 pm

The blueprint books are a pain half the time I pick up a blueprint to use it I take it out of the book.

I would like an easier way of editing blueprints though, especially if I want to make one with items I don't yet have. though the hot-bar only idea makes it hard to share them with other players in a MP game.

User avatar
Kermit152
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:28 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by Kermit152 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:08 am

I like proposal 3 or 4 the best.

rrbrussell
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:07 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by rrbrussell » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:16 am

Don't do anything.

Linked blueprints assumes that you want blueprints to auto update. There are save to save differences where I don't want that to happen.

The 4 options are frankly not well thought out with regards to the blueprint ecosystem and how they are actually used in game. You are much better off changing nothing.

Lilly
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by Lilly » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:47 pm

Proposal 1 & 2:
Those introduce different types of blueprint: Those linked to the library and those which are not linked. What happens if you clear a linked blueprint? Is it then also cleared in the library (i.e. the library now contains an empty blueprint)? So I'm against linking blueprints to the library.

Having those different types of blueprints/books can be avoided by treating blueprints and books differently:
  • Books are always linked. To create a new empty book, you have to create it in the library first.
  • Blueprints are never linked. To update a blueprint, remove the old one from the book it is in and add the updated version of that blueprint.
  • Don't allow blueprints to be stored in the library directly, only books containing blueprints.
Between those two proposals, I prefer 1, where blueprints are not items. If you pick a blueprint from a book, you create a copy. To delete a blueprint from a book, use the same mouse button as when clearing a filter.
If proposal 2 is chosen, please change the book's behavior such that clicking a blueprint in it selects it instead of removing it. (To remove a blueprint, select it first and then click it again.)

Proposal 4:
Instead of having a finite number of slots that can contain books containing an infinite number of blueprints, why not have an infinite number of books containing a finite number of blueprints slots? Specifically 100 slots, which is 10 action bar pages. This of course implies that books can no longer be stored in your action bar or inventory. The benefits of this approach:
  • Books can now also store deconstruction planners (as well as every item in the game).
  • Both the action bar layout and blueprints are shared between all your games.
  • Those people who want to start a new game with an empty action bar page, create a new book in the library and use it.
  • With some minor changes, the distinction between an item and a blueprint containing only that item can be removed.
  • Players can export and share their action bar layouts.
blueprints.png
blueprints.png (44.9 KiB) Viewed 1010 times

Jap2.0
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1957
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:02 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by Jap2.0 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:56 pm

Lilly wrote:an infinite number of books
Lilly wrote:
  • Books can now also store [...] every item in the game.
So... infinite inventory?
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

User avatar
eradicator
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3054
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

Post by eradicator » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:37 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
Lilly wrote:an infinite number of books
Lilly wrote:
  • Books can now also store [...] every item in the game.
So... infinite inventory?
If hotbar slots are only symbolic items you gain no inventory by that. It's actually quite a neat idea to make "book" equal "hotbar layout". Even though i don't like scrollable hotbars much.

Post Reply

Return to “News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users