Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Regular reports on Factorio development.
Griffork
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by Griffork » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:12 am

Just added a mod interface request since you asked!
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=61146 - Custom Combinator Logic.

I asked for this a while ago and got told it was never going to happen, but I can dream right?

dasiro
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by dasiro » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:27 pm

Zeblote wrote:
dasiro wrote:improved VRAM usage would be a nice thing, since 3GB for the high-res is quite steep for older cards, causing major FPS drops while passing dense trees or steam engines. I've been playing around with some of the graphics options, but it's still pretty confusing :?
High res textures are specifically not for older cards. They're a nice bonus for people with the hardware to use them.
still it's not like they are super-detailed or have a high polygon count, hell there's only 1 static angle that needs to be rendered, so in comparison with other much more detailed games that don't hog that much VRAM this is rather poor.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:29 pm

Well, it would seem that Factorio, up until now, was not that optimized as far as graphics are concerned :
comparing with 2D games with a similar number of units on-screen like Distant Worlds (or even Starcraft 1),
I get much worse FPS in Factorio (with "normal" definition sprites),
but it would seem that the devs were paying attention to that, bless them !
Twinsen wrote:
  • The new graphics back-end rewrite is nearing finalization. A closed-beta branch was sent to a few players to test that rendering works correctly across different hardware. The rendering is faster and no major issues were reported so far. But there is still much to do, such as improvements to VRAM usage and many experiments with shaders.
(Also, Factorio is not a 3D game : there are no polygons, or angles of view - they are 2D sprites, in fact I'd expect that most of the acceleration that dedicated (3D!) graphic cards provide is completely unused...)

Recon777
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by Recon777 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:39 pm

And in general looking at "hacks" that mods are currently doing and seeing if it's reasonable to make the game support what the mod was trying to do in a non-hacky way.
The very first thing that came to my mind when I saw this was: Factorissimo!!
I have no idea how this mod does what it does but I get the distinct feeling it is doing something hacky that the game doesn't natively support. There are a few quirks that the mod has, such as not having good power reporting to the outside world and also eating up a lot of ticks when transferring massive amounts of material in and out of the buildings.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:45 pm

There was talk that a closer to vanilla Factorissimo-like feature would be (underground?) caves...

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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by theolderbeholder » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:55 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
milo christiansen wrote:3GB for high res? I run high res on a 2GB card and it does not lag or anything, nice steady 60/60
I have 2GB of video memory, and it crashes on startup if I select high res graphics.
[...]
That video memory is shared though, and I only have 4GB RAM - might explain the crash?
My medium sized spaghetti abomination takes 3Gb main memory for factorio.exe and (according to the vga driver) another ~3 GB VRAM. So some investment in hardware might be prudent.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:36 pm

That's a Surface Pro 3 - great for what it is (an extremely lightweight, dock-able laptop).
I do have a gaming tower PC - I can't bring it where I actually am though...

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mexmer
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by mexmer » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:03 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:That's a Surface Pro 3 - great for what it is (an extremely lightweight, dock-able laptop).
I do have a gaming tower PC - I can't bring it where I actually am though...
kinda shame surface pro 3 has memory soldered to board, so you can't upgrade it.

and yes, 4GB is rather low when you using IGPU

zyklame
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by zyklame » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:07 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:Well, it would seem that Factorio, up until now, was not that optimized as far as graphics are concerned :
comparing with 2D games with a similar number of units on-screen like Distant Worlds (or even Starcraft 1),
I get much worse FPS in Factorio (with "normal" definition sprites),
but it would seem that the devs were paying attention to that, bless them !
Twinsen wrote:
  • The new graphics back-end rewrite is nearing finalization. A closed-beta branch was sent to a few players to test that rendering works correctly across different hardware. The rendering is faster and no major issues were reported so far. But there is still much to do, such as improvements to VRAM usage and many experiments with shaders.
(Also, Factorio is not a 3D game : there are no polygons, or angles of view - they are 2D sprites, in fact I'd expect that most of the acceleration that dedicated (3D!) graphic cards provide is completely unused...)
The problem with the high V-Ram use is exactly here.
With 3D models u need one texture for the object and map it onto the moving polygons.
With the 2D engine u need a texture / sprite for every animation frame which increase texture space. But for that u have much less calculations since u have no transformations to calculate.
With a game like factorio and the amount of objects on the screen there is no propper way of 3D rendering everything since u can't deal with the amount of needed polygons.

krystof1119
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by krystof1119 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Since nobody is obsessing about this, I'll start.
Sync mods with a server you want to join.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Oh, and
Having multiple versions of a mod installed and being able to switch between them.
is nice too. Will we have profiles?

tk0421
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by tk0421 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:18 pm

Those lanyards are really cool, if I were a lanyard person, i'd definately want to buy one.

Jürgen Erhard
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by Jürgen Erhard » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:58 pm

Ghoulish wrote:The key chains are really cool. I could of sworn you were going to show off the new electric info screen this week, my prediction must of been for the other multiverse.. Next week maybe? :)
*could HAVE sworn

(I decided to *NEVER* let that slide, because it's just the worst error I know)

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Oktokolo
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by Oktokolo » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:44 pm

zyklame wrote:With 3D models u need one texture for the object and map it onto the moving polygons.
With the 2D engine u need a texture / sprite for every animation frame which increase texture space. But for that u have much less calculations since u have no transformations to calculate.
With a game like factorio and the amount of objects on the screen there is no propper way of 3D rendering everything since u can't deal with the amount of needed polygons.
GPUs are special purpose hardware optimized to calculate and render geometry - and todays GPUs are really good at it.
Rendering thousands of duplicates of a few simple models in a scene is already done for showing grass and other repeated geometry in current games. So obviously, GPUs can do that.
Since DirectX 9 and OpenGL 3.1 there also is API support for geometry instancing wich drastically reduces the amount of draw calls needed to render massive amounts of duplicated stuff (games exhibit much more grass, foliage and clutter since then).
So rendering Factorio in 3D while having all the items on the belts is feasible. But you would need to rewrite the graphics engine from scratch - and that is not likely to happen this year (i expect 0.17 to get released around xmas).
Also players would probably need a dedicated GPU (but a cheap one would do) to play the game with 60 FPS at 1080p. So most laptop users and people playing at work would have to play on lowest settings and would still not get acceptable FPS.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by BlueTemplar » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:52 am

Integrated graphics have gotten much better in the recent years : you can even consider playing 3D games on them !
A 3D Factorio that would not push graphics too much (think Starcraft 2 quality?) should have reasonable performance...

Especially since a reasonable target would not be 1920x1080 at 60 FPS, but 1366x768 at 30 FPS ! (4 times less pixels per second !) (because smaller screen Laptops - and Factorio isn't a First Person Shooter to need 60FPS !)

theolderbeholder
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by theolderbeholder » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:26 am

BlueTemplar wrote:A 3D Factorio that would not push graphics too much (think Starcraft 2 quality?) should have reasonable performance...
It doesn´t (push). My card doesn´t even turn on the fan and runs passively cooled. Still half of the Vram is filled... Which is good, I don´t expect the power supply to really cope with the card and the cpu under load.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by BlueTemplar » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:03 am

Are you talking about StarCraft 2? Because I'm not aware of a 3D Factorio...
(no, Satisfactory is not, and you can't play it yet, anyway...)

Froilen
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by Froilen » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:28 am

why only censor one "DICK" word in the picture?

there are other 3 more dick words without censor...

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Light
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by Light » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:49 am

Froilen wrote:why only censor one "DICK" word in the picture?

there are other 3 more dick words without censor...
That's the joke.

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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by Sander_Bouwhuis » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:50 am

krystof1119 wrote:Since nobody is obsessing about this, I'll start.
Sync mods with a server you want to join.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Oh, and
Having multiple versions of a mod installed and being able to switch between them.
is nice too. Will we have profiles?
Sir, you and me both! This is extremely aggravating. Playing on multiple servers is so much of a problem that I stopped playing. Constantly manually changing the settings is ridiculous!

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Friday Facts #248 - Not Saturday Facts

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:12 am

ModMyFactory mod manager should help you somewhat until then :
viewtopic.php?f=137&t=33370

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