Price change

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brunzenstein
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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:15 am

Nusty wrote:
meganothing wrote:
brunzenstein wrote: I propose a subscription model with a unchanged price covering 12 months gaming starting with version 0.17.00 and securing subscribers all further updates.
...
This is satire, right? ;)


I think this is early April Fools
No it is not.
Think from a commercial point:
When funds are drying out, and they will dry out surely as the very special game has forward looking a very limited market share to expect,
the game development will and must stop for good and Factorio dies.

- is this a attractive alternative to you?

and from a moral viewpoint:
Is ist honest to expect for 20 bucks to get a lifelong / endless service / all in?
Not even Rolls Royce offers this

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:26 am

dasiro wrote:subscriptions are a hideous milking cow that will scare gamers away, rather then bond them to the game. Since the devs don't care a bout the .99 marketing scam and there's also a non-steam version, this will never happen. They're old-school and honest towards their public, which is a big part of the charm this team has together with their accessibility
No, it is not.
It is a attractive "pay as you go" alternative giving the gamer the option to continuously to eternity use the game even if one refuses to subscribe, only giving in on future updates.
Its commercially fair to the dev as well as to the gamer and not my invention as it was tested and is used successfully regularly on other markets.

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Re: Price change

Post by Light » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:07 am

Many people ignore the digits past the dot because it's seen as insignificant. Those who are in poverty situations (as I was) or those who are attentive of their money in general will see those digits because it's significant enough to impact them in some manner, thus seeing the entire price. This is speaking from personal experience and observational studies with friends, family, and strangers over the many years. It won't apply to everyone but it's something I've yet to see disproved. Although, I haven't looked into peer reviewed studies that state if there's a true psychological reason and not just being cautious with money.

brunzenstein wrote:
dasiro wrote:subscriptions are a hideous milking cow that will scare gamers away, rather then bond them to the game. Since the devs don't care a bout the .99 marketing scam and there's also a non-steam version, this will never happen. They're old-school and honest towards their public, which is a big part of the charm this team has together with their accessibility
No, it is not.
It is a attractive "pay as you go" alternative giving the gamer the option to continuously to eternity use the game even if one refuses to subscribe, only giving in on future updates.
Its commercially fair to the dev as well as to the gamer and not my invention as it was tested and is used successfully regularly on other markets.
Yes, it is.
DLC is something with a highly negative stigma for a very good reason, with subscriptions viewed exactly as such. Having to pay for a patch is incredibly shady and this "seasons pass" concept has always been a major turn off that has NEVER been appealing to anyone (Unless you're a rich snob who has that kind of money to burn). Wube is much better than that as their reputation isn't tarnished by such practices and hopefully never will be.

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:30 am

Light wrote:Those who are in poverty situations (as I was) or those who are attentive of their money in general ...
Poverty does not automatically entitle you (probably in communistic NorthKorea it does) for getting a free ride on anything on other folks expense- especially not on games.

The first thing you should do if your in a financially cold situation is to stop playing games at once, getting your arse up and try something useful to community to get a honest income.
That said again: To be a poor sucker does not entitle you to a life long free lunch on others (developers) expense. Thats what your basically asking for.
That not how our western capitalistic economy works

My concern is, that WUBE will not get the financial resources to stay with factorio and develop it further but giving up on Factorio after having hiked the price and turn to other project for good.
To give up would be the logical decision as soon fonds are drying out (becoming poor in your wording) - and I bet they will dry, given the market situation for such a tiny, very special, only attractive to a certain kind of highly attentive users, dedicated game.

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Re: Price change

Post by dasiro » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:52 am

brunzenstein wrote:
dasiro wrote:subscriptions are a hideous milking cow that will scare gamers away, rather then bond them to the game. Since the devs don't care a bout the .99 marketing scam and there's also a non-steam version, this will never happen. They're old-school and honest towards their public, which is a big part of the charm this team has together with their accessibility
No, it is not.
It is a attractive "pay as you go" alternative giving the gamer the option to continuously to eternity use the game even if one refuses to subscribe, only giving in on future updates.
Its commercially fair to the dev as well as to the gamer and not my invention as it was tested and is used successfully regularly on other markets.
once a game is done, a company will start a new project. In the traditional gaming market 80% of the sales are generated within the first 3 months after launch. To get the funding for the game, the early access has been used, but this is just like asking an advance on your paycheck: that money is directly subtracted from your launch-sales.

A lot of games these days have online aspects that require infrastructure and when that costs too much, there are 4 options:
- continuation: keep the server-side running and thus pumping an endless stream of money in it
- subscriptions: the milking cow, but this requires extra value and resources for the money people keep putting in
- standalone/limited functionality: making the client-software independent from the server software
- discontinuation: the project is terminated, all plugs are pulled and the game no longer functions

since the beginning, it is clear Wube wants to go for the third option, maybe for the first depending on how large the fanbase will remain and how high the upkeep is

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Re: Price change

Post by fiery_salmon » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:58 am

brunzenstein wrote: and from a moral viewpoint:
Is ist honest to expect for 20 bucks to get a lifelong / endless service / all in?
Not even Rolls Royce offers this
Assuming that you are serious:

- Yes, if somebody is offering and promising it. It is viable especially with software that has funny property of high production cost and almost zero cost of duplicating it (especially nowadays with games not sold on CDs but available as a download)

- it is not endless, sooner or later development will stop (I hope for Minecraft-style continued development, but we will see whatever it happens)

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Re: Price change

Post by torham » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:13 am

brunzenstein wrote: I propose a subscription model...
1st of April is tomorrow, you are early

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Re: Price change

Post by Light » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:16 am

brunzenstein wrote:
Light wrote:Those who are in poverty situations (as I was) or those who are attentive of their money in general ...
*Irrelevant material here*
You're referencing the paragraph that has nothing to do with what you had to say, as it was in response to the .99 cent discussion. Read the paragraph directly after your quote and give a proper non-pompous response.

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Re: Price change

Post by torham » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:27 am

brunzenstein wrote: the game development will and must stop for good and Factorio dies.
Interesting opinion. So every game or software or project that has been already finished is "dead"? I drive around on a dead car ( the development on it has ceased), listening to long dead music, I use dead phone, I type this on a dead computer. I live in a dead house.
I would call Factorio after 1.0 "finished", and the developer can move on to next projects. I dare say with the experience behind them, even better ones.

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:44 am

torham wrote:
brunzenstein wrote: the game development will and must stop for good and Factorio dies.
Interesting opinion. So every game or software or project that has been already finished is "dead"? I drive around on a dead car ( the development on it has ceased), listening to long dead music, I use dead phone, I type this on a dead computer. I live in a dead house..
not so

The Edsel and the Studebaker, excellent and outstanding products died because their development seized.
That will (hopefully not) happen to Factorio
Your current car is from the producer just now further developed and will appear as another model (by the way: the money in the car-industry is not made by selling cars but by repairing them.
Every accident is a windfall for these part producers), the musician sells new songs every hour, the iPhone gets a new model each year or so and your computer will reincarnate in a new, faster model soon. Twice paid for, first by the initial sell and then by the selling of the newer model.
And your house will sell sometimes (hopefully with a profit) and the ground will live with another one soon. (Thats the equivalent to my alternatively proposed model not subscribing to updated Factorio versions but staying with the current version)
The point is: If you see software as a lifelong free soup after you entered the restaurant once and payed for the initial soup only, then someone else has to pay for the rest or the restaurant closes down.
Thats capitalism in a nutshell.

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Re: Price change

Post by torham » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:59 am

brunzenstein wrote: The point is: If you see software as a lifelong free soup after you entered the restaurant...

... but I don't. Im quite happy to pay for a game, play it, have fun, and than go play something else. Hell I still have Ufo Enemy Unknown, the first game I owned ( on floppy disks no less), but I don't play it all the time. Sure I had some good times with it, but it is over 20 years old. Why would I want to stick to it for life?

PS: Floppies anyone? 3½-inch? Ahh, the nostalgia :D

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:03 am

torham wrote:
brunzenstein wrote: The point is: If you see software as a lifelong free soup after you entered the restaurant...

... but I don't. Im quite happy to pay for a game, play it, have fun, and than go play something else. Hell I still have Ufo Enemy Unknown, the first game I owned ( on floppy disks no less), but I don't play it all the time. Sure I had some good times with it, but it is over 20 years old. Why would I want to stick to it for life?

PS: Floppies anyone? 3½-inch? Ahh, the nostalgia :D
Thank you - thats exactly what I meant and my point.
If one is happy with the current state of the art, why not stay with that and live happy with it.

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Re: Price change

Post by fiery_salmon » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:13 am

brunzenstein wrote: The point is: If you see software as a lifelong free soup after you entered the restaurant once and payed for the initial soup only, then someone else has to pay for the rest or the restaurant closes down.
Are you aware that continuing to use client-only program on my computers is not costing its producer anything (and with updates cost is minimal - just filehosting)? Unlike soup, where every portion must be produced again?

Also, are you aware that Factorio devs are selling game for a single price with all future prices included? That is at least one example of competent devs deciding to follow this model.

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Re: Price change

Post by aka13 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:40 am

Always check post history of a user before trying to have any sort of a meaningful discussion, friends!
Pony/Furfag avatar? Opinion discarded.

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:56 am

fiery_salmon wrote:
brunzenstein wrote: The point is: If you see software as a lifelong free soup after you entered the restaurant once and payed for the initial soup only, then someone else has to pay for the rest or the restaurant closes down.
Are you aware that continuing to use client-only program on my computers is not costing its producer anything (and with updates cost is minimal - just filehosting)? Unlike soup, where every portion must be produced again?

Also, are you aware that Factorio devs are selling game for a single price with all future prices included? That is at least one example of competent devs deciding to follow this model.
I was not precise enough.
My fault.
The non subscriber user get the basic soup after buying a entry ticket to the restaurant once, for all his life gaming for free, only he is not entitled to the subscribers VIP room where he is served daily fresh dish of the day for a very moderate nominal yearly fee.

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Re: Price change

Post by dasiro » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:07 am

they're not planning any DLC or expansions, only updates so there's no added value for which subscribers would pay.
When you see how moddable the game has been made, it's rather clear they want to release it into the wild for the community to have fun with. Since I've finished vanilla with all achievements, the only thing that kept me hooked were mods, so if it wasn't for this choice from the devs, it would've ended up on the pile of finished games long time ago and probably stayed there forever

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Re: Price change

Post by Masterfox » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:47 am

It should be noted that the DLC discussion is pointless or, at best, theoretical: It would be illegal to withhold them from anyone who has bought the game already.

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:04 am

Masterfox wrote:It should be noted that the DLC discussion is pointless or, at best, theoretical: It would be illegal to withhold them from anyone who has bought the game already.
This statement legally doesn't hold any water.
dasiro wrote:they're not planning any DLC or expansions, only updates so there's no added value for which subscribers would pay.
There are a lot of ideas of massive added value for Factorio in updated versions. Further worlds in which users may find themselves under water or on other planets without oxygen e.g. the possibilities are endless.
Look only at the changes envisioned for 0.17 or better said the final version 1.0 thats enough added value worth joining the boat jumping from 0.16 to 1.0 and subscribe.

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Re: Price change

Post by fiery_salmon » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:09 am

Masterfox wrote:It should be noted that the DLC discussion is pointless or, at best, theoretical: It would be illegal to withhold them from anyone who has bought the game already.
[citation needed]

AFAIK they can release content as DLC, make Factorio 2 and declare that it is not update - second would be quite obnoxious trickery (and therefore unlikely), first would be probably fine.

Both completely legal.

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:19 am

fiery_salmon wrote:
brunzenstein wrote: The point is: If you see software as a lifelong free soup after you entered the restaurant once and payed for the initial soup only, then someone else has to pay for the rest or the restaurant closes down.
Are you aware that continuing to use client-only program on my computers is not costing its producer anything (and with updates cost is minimal - just filehosting)? Unlike soup, where every portion must be produced again?

Also, are you aware that Factorio devs are selling game for a single price with all future prices included? That is at least one example of competent devs deciding to follow this model.
Probably only for uncle Willis and aunt Annies personal homepage showing of her hand-paintings that might be true.
This amateurish thinking is sinking promising newcomer companies by the hundreds every day.
SW firms have to pay salary, legal fees, taxes, commissions, rents, hundreds of fees e.g. for fair attending, travel expenses and have a ton of other engagements to satisfy.

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