Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby Slondo » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:14 pm

the shadows are really a very important element in any game, I would suggest something like "dynamic shadows" for add in game in some future update :D

Factorio has a system of day and night ... imagine if the shadows of the entities were "animated" to project on the ground in relation to the position of the sun!
Of course, the 3D model of entities would have to be used violently to make it possible... :shock:
Would be something fantastic to see in the game ..

About the new shaders of trees.. Could it be possible to make the shadows really have layers?
For example, if the character enters the shadow of a tree or something, the shadow also overlaps the character, making the character a little darker...
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby Tricorius » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:35 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:Legal note: I have no idea what I'm talking about.


I assume they are teasing you about this: http://store.steampowered.com/app/64493 ... _Billions/

Not sure if you are aware of it and playing coy. ;)
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby Jap2.0 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:06 pm

Tricorius wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:Legal note: I have no idea what I'm talking about.


I assume they are teasing you about this: http://store.steampowered.com/app/64493 ... _Billions/

Not sure if you are aware of it and playing coy. ;)


Yeah, I know about the game, it's more copyright and everything else I have no idea about.
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby Tricorius » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:31 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
Tricorius wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:Legal note: I have no idea what I'm talking about.


I assume they are teasing you about this: http://store.steampowered.com/app/64493 ... _Billions/

Not sure if you are aware of it and playing coy. ;)


Yeah, I know about the game, it's more copyright and everything else I have no idea about.


Well I’m not a lawyer, but I doubt Wube would get sued for a clever reference to another game, but they are in the same industry so one never knows. ;)
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby Jap2.0 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:57 am

Tricorius wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:
Tricorius wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:Legal note: I have no idea what I'm talking about.


I assume they are teasing you about this: http://store.steampowered.com/app/64493 ... _Billions/

Not sure if you are aware of it and playing coy. ;)


Yeah, I know about the game, it's more copyright and everything else I have no idea about.


Well I’m not a lawyer, but I doubt Wube would get sued for a clever reference to another game, but they are in the same industry so one never knows. ;)


Yeah - references are fine (see: so long and thanks for all the fish), but I have no idea where that ends - the original suggestion was more of a copy, just in Factorio style. I have no idea if that would be covered or not.

Legal note: I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, so please let me know if that sounds completely stupid.
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby TKMantis » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:15 am

Ive got an idea for a scenario for 3 players.
Player one can only mine and cook iron to supply everyone with iron plates.
Player two can only mine and cook copper for copper plates and is the only person allowed to build oil rigs.
Player three can only mine coal and stone and is the only person able to build power generating buildings to supply everyone with electricity.

Everyone had to research individually and build their own bases. Eventually everyone would be transporting plates and ore using trains between each other.

Ive successfully played this scenario well with friends.
What do you guys think?

-- TKMantis
Last edited by TKMantis on Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby Drury » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:46 am

Slondo wrote:the shadows are really a very important element in any game, I would suggest something like "dynamic shadows" for add in game in some future update :D

Factorio has a system of day and night ... imagine if the shadows of the entities were "animated" to project on the ground in relation to the position of the sun!
Of course, the 3D model of entities would have to be used violently to make it possible... :shock:
Would be something fantastic to see in the game ..

About the new shaders of trees.. Could it be possible to make the shadows really have layers?
For example, if the character enters the shadow of a tree or something, the shadow also overlaps the character, making the character a little darker...


Factorio is a 2D game running on a 2D engine... Don't expect anything 3D.

There's one messy workaround though.

Image

ImageImage

Here's a little thing I just did in Unity real quick, just because it's so easy to do with it. No 3D models used, just a quick and dirty normal map I drew in Paint.NET. It does work using a 3D lightsource, but I *think* that could simulated in a 2D engine as well. The basic principle behind normalmap-based lighting doesn't require any 3D computing, it just calculates how bright each pixel should be based on the, well, angle between the surface and the 3D vector of the light source, but hey... That Z variable can be a constant, in fact here I'm just moving the lightsource on a 2D plane. You could also remove the 3D vector from the equation by just using a global light angle for everything, since technically all Sun rays hit the surface at the same angle, the angle just changes with the time of day (and, since the surface is always the same angle as well, you only need X and Y coordinates to define the angle). Point being: It's theoretically doable in a 2D engine.

Downsides: You have to completely ignore complex details like the gears because normalmaps don't allow 3D-looking shapes that fold into themselves. I have no clue how you'd do trees either.

Shadows would be a problem as well. You'd need to morph them as they're being rotated, and they'd probably never really look good. Alternatively you could prebake an animation, but you'd need a ton of sheets for animated entities - which, fair enough, shadows are monochrome and thus not too taxing on the VRAM, but still, there is some cost.

It'd basically take a lot of work, and even if they actually got it to work it'd be a sideways step at best. But hey, it's a thing that can be done... *I think*.
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby DaveKap » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:31 am

User DedlySpyder helped me create a PvP mod that had factory builders gather and refine resources to spend against each other in a "proxy war" battled by hired AI. Though it's technically "finished," we didn't continue development of it because we thought 1.0 was soon upon us and we decided to wait until that hit. It's now been a very long time since then and I'm not sure how much more work he'd like to put in to ensure it still runs properly but if it means the developers will give the mode a shot, I'd love to get it up on the mod site for you to try.

Perhaps then you could help us out with the bugs we ran across. ;)
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby meganothing » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:42 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:Legal note: I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, so please let me know if that sounds completely stupid.


I'm no laywer, so don't take my words for the absolut truth. But I'm quite sure even with the legal system that a better lawyer makes you more right a copyright infringment between Factorio and They are Billions would have no chance at all, not in a million years.

For copyright to be applicable you really would have to copy parts of the game 1:1. I.e. the code or graphic sprites. What you are talking about is more like the idea of a game. Ídeas or better their implementation would be the target of patents, but obviously you would have a hard time to find something worthy of a patent in a game idea.

If you were right, Id software could have sued all shooters coming after wolfenstein/doom (and would have been sued by the makers of Midi Maze, oops).
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby bobingabout » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:51 pm

I've seen youtube videos about this sort of thing before. back in the oldern days of computer gaming, say for example someone made a platformer, someone else who had already made a platformer would try to sue them for copyright infringement. it was judged back then that the game has to... pretty much be a blatant copy to even be considered.

Also keep in mind that Bethesda took Notch to court for writing a game named "Scrolls", because it contained part of their trade name "the Elder Scrolls". I don't remember the results.

I'd be a little weary about using the title of another game to describe a game mode on the same theme, but other than that, I don't see the issue.
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby meganothing » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:07 pm

bobingabout wrote:Also keep in mind that Bethesda took Notch to court for writing a game named "Scrolls", because it contained part of their trade name "the Elder Scrolls". I don't remember the results.


That was a trademark case. Trademark is a bit like copyright but it works even with single words and name recognition aka brand awareness is part of the "sauce" that makes a name a trademark

In copyright the "sauce" is originality, you can only copyright **creative** works. Trademark doesn't need that
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby zingaya » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:16 pm

A few ideas:

After you launch a rocket, others factions (bots) should arrive into the planet. Creating it's own factories, vehicles, fighting with aliens and even at you. You could trade with them and make allies.
Add more tanks. Or the same tank change the turret, armor, engine, etc...
Tank should not be damaged from tree collision. (very annoying)
Automated robot spiders (for repair, mine, defend).
Sniper rifle, and a camouflage.
Wooden walls, shields (maybe too much).
Some bitters should swim.
Bitters that only attack while is dark.
Other animals, and bitters could feed from them.
Add boats.
Build water titles.
Volcanoes, and lava.
Meteors. Some of them could do a lot of damage, create ore, cliffs (as holes) attract bitters.
Caverns (?).
Weather, and it's effects.
Portable electric generator (for shortages, distant outposts, as backup, etc...).
Wind generators.
Hidden cameras. To keep and eye through the fog of war for bitters.
Growing trees/forests. Possibility to Plant trees, to reduce/contain pollution.
Electric rails. If bitters step on it, they get damage and attack. You can even use electric rails for the locomotive and for defenses/buildings.
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby Jap2.0 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:56 pm

meganothing wrote:
bobingabout wrote:Also keep in mind that Bethesda took Notch to court for writing a game named "Scrolls", because it contained part of their trade name "the Elder Scrolls". I don't remember the results.


That was a trademark case. Trademark is a bit like copyright but it works even with single words and name recognition aka brand awareness is part of the "sauce" that makes a name a trademark

In copyright the "sauce" is originality, you can only copyright **creative** works. Trademark doesn't need that


I believe the result was that Notch got to keep the name, but he couldn't use it for any future products.
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby Drury » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:23 pm

zingaya wrote:Tank should not be damaged from tree collision. (very annoying)


This is already a thing.

zingaya wrote:Hidden cameras. To keep and eye through the fog of war for bitters.


Why not just use radars?

Take a look at the mod portal, they already made most of what you're suggesting.
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby eradicator » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:12 am

FFF wrote:
  • Do you have any ideas for new scenarios, or improvements to the current ones?
  • What sort of scenarios and events would you like to see and/or take part in?
  • Do you think developing a competitive aspect to Factorio will benefit us in the long run?


1) I'd really like to hear some more of the background story, which more campaign than scenario i guess... But knowing who/why i am on nauvis and building that factory would really interest me. (Hey, the planet even has a name, so someone must have named it...)
Also i really enjoyed the short puzzle game that is "transport belt madness".

2) Trains are always good. So...maybe a "rob the train" scenario where a really slow but heavily defended train drives through the map and you have to stop it in time? Or you have to safe a reactor before it goes critical? I.e. some "not open ended" scenarios that provide a more classical "i finished this" experience that freeplay does not offer. Also i just remembered that ages ago there was a Tower Defense style scenario. Which in turn reminds me that i played War Craft 3 99% for the scenarios that had nothing to do with the original RTS gameplay. So maybe more scenarios that are completly different from normal gameplay? A small Tower Defense Demo would be a nice start.

3) I'm not personally interested in competitive games, so more of a general thought: I'd say it depends on what you mean by "benefit". I'd say the competitive games market is a pretty competitive field (hah :P) where only a few big games can survive for long, and most games just vanish again (Look at how many "Hero Shooters" were published last year vs how many are already out of buisiness again). Though competitive gamers tend to (from my observations) have a strong emotional binding to their favourite game, which leads to two outcomes: a) they form a hard core of loyal fans for a game but b) are really "toxic" when anybody says anything even remotely bad about their favourite game. So, what i want to say is...if factorio had more/better competitive aspects you surely could gain some more loyal fans from a target group that you're not currently supplying, but...if you target that group don't be suprised if twinsen vs bots vs belts style flamewars become a normal part of the community discourse.
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby meganothing » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:20 pm

eradicator wrote:2) Trains are always good. So...maybe a "rob the train" scenario where a really slow but heavily defended train drives through the map and you have to stop it in time? Or you have to safe a reactor before it goes critical? I.e. some "not open ended" scenarios that provide a more classical "i finished this" experience that freeplay does not offer. Also i just remembered that ages ago there was a Tower Defense style scenario. Which in turn reminds me that i played War Craft 3 99% for the scenarios that had nothing to do with the original RTS gameplay. So maybe more scenarios that are completly different from normal gameplay? A small Tower Defense Demo would be a nice start.


To expand on this excellent idea:
1) A scenario with **very** limited resources to mine, but caches distributed all over the world. Each cache has the resources of a typical resource field, but already mined and you don't know which resource. And every cache has a black box nuclear reactor that is on a timer and when it explodes destroys the cache as well. To make reaching the caches difficult, some adjustments could be done to the game setting, i.e. car or tank could be removed from the research tree so that you can't reach the caches through a wild dash.

The player can either try to find out which ones of the caches have enough time left first or don't waste the time to find out and just try to reach caches in time. And hope it is a resource he needs instead of the 5th stones cache ;-)

Sure, the scenario is highly contrived, all those reactors in a critical state and caches on a barren world. But I think the random element of "What's in that cache and do I have time to reach and empty it?" adds a scenario with replayability for people who like to play early/mid game instead of mega-factories.


2) Aliens destroy resource fields they nest on. No guessing game on the resource here but less contrived.
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Re: Friday Facts #227 - Rendering, Trees & Scenario talk

Postby Lubricus » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:31 pm

Slondo wrote:the shadows are really a very important element in any game, I would suggest something like "dynamic shadows" for add in game in some future update :D

Factorio has a system of day and night ... imagine if the shadows of the entities were "animated" to project on the ground in relation to the position of the sun!
Of course, the 3D model of entities would have to be used violently to make it possible... :shock:
Would be something fantastic to see in the game ..

About the new shaders of trees.. Could it be possible to make the shadows really have layers?
For example, if the character enters the shadow of a tree or something, the shadow also overlaps the character, making the character a little darker...


I think Just skewing and lengthening the shadow sprites would look good enough. Without full 3D graphics the shadows won't be perfect.
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