Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby Zavian » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:30 am

Logistics robots can supply the player. That is why the logistics robots, construction robots and provider chests and storage chests are available early in the tech tree. Bot based construction is so much faster and more convenient than building everything by hand.

Even if you are building things manually, having bots resupply you with whatever you need is so much more convenient than grabbing things out of chests or from belts.
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby Serenity » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:27 pm

Rseding91 wrote:Our loading screen is sub 3 seconds though in 0.16 - you wouldn't be able to read anything :D

Then adding tips becomes an advantage for you. It frees up the time you'd have spent optimizing loading times for other things
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby nljr » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:54 pm

Rseding91 wrote:Our loading screen is sub 3 seconds though in 0.16 - you wouldn't be able to read anything :D


For the intiial loading screen, leave the tip up below the main menu.

For loading into a game, add a "Ready" button to dismiss the tip and unpause the game.
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby Keks » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:28 pm

nljr wrote:
Rseding91 wrote:Our loading screen is sub 3 seconds though in 0.16 - you wouldn't be able to read anything :D


For the intiial loading screen, leave the tip up below the main menu.

For loading into a game, add a "Ready" button to dismiss the tip and unpause the game.


don't pause the game while the tips are open in the first place,
I know that when I was a new player I had lots of relatively idle wait time.

as for making it obvious where to find the Tips why not use the buttons in the upper left corner mods use, it should be empty for new players making it easily visible.
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby giantmechahamham » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:00 pm

Zavian wrote:Logistics robots can supply the player. That is why the logistics robots, construction robots and provider chests and storage chests are available early in the tech tree. Bot based construction is so much faster and more convenient than building everything by hand.

Even if you are building things manually, having bots resupply you with whatever you need is so much more convenient than grabbing things out of chests or from belts.


*Pfffreeeee*.... See? Another WTF that I didn't understand. This should be a tip or in the tutorials menu. Right now, all it seems to have is railway tutorials. I think it should also have a oil refining/chemical production and bots tutorials.
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby Zavian » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:50 pm

That's why I think the guide was important. It contained a lot of information that was useful when I learned the game. Some of that can probably be incorporated in new tutorials. (But I suspect many players won't play them). If the guide isn't going to come back, then maybe the community can move some of the info in it into a new section of the wiki. (But that probably isn't something I'd be likely to contribute to myself).
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby SupplyDepoo » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:29 pm

I think the tips & tricks system is fine. I don't want nagging loading screen or main menu tips. We don't need tutorials for every little thing. A screenshot and one sentence is enough to explain many things. We don't need a full-blown wiki in the game. Just use the wiki we have already. Coming from Minecraft I can say that this game is entirely enjoyable without the wiki. I don't think the research tree needs any special explanation. Everything you need to know is right there.

I do mourn the loss of the official guide, since I think it was a much friendlier format to give an overview of the game. The wiki is bloated with links and information that doesn't matter to new players or even people who haven't bought the game yet. The guide was like a friend introducing you to the game. That takes love and care. The wiki is just a clinical amalgamation of knowledge. Anyone can write a passable wiki entry. Guides require empathy and craftsmanship. It's sad to see it abandoned but at least it was archived somewhere: http://web.archive.org/web/201706261339 ... index.html
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby Alice3173 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:31 am

So to summarize:
SupplyDepoo wrote:I think the tips & tricks system is fine. I don't want nagging loading screen or main menu tips. We don't need tutorials for every little thing. A screenshot and one sentence is enough to explain many things. We don't need a full-blown wiki in the game. Just use the wiki we have already. Coming from Minecraft I can say that this game is entirely enjoyable without the wiki. I don't think the research tree needs any special explanation. Everything you need to know is right there.

Don't put useful information in the game. Instead force players to rely on external internet resources.
I do mourn the loss of the official guide, since I think it was a much friendlier format to give an overview of the game. The wiki is bloated with links and information that doesn't matter to new players or even people who haven't bought the game yet. The guide was like a friend introducing you to the game. That takes love and care. The wiki is just a clinical amalgamation of knowledge. Anyone can write a passable wiki entry. Guides require empathy and craftsmanship. It's sad to see it abandoned but at least it was archived somewhere: http://web.archive.org/web/201706261339 ... index.html

If you need more advanced information for something then that's too bad. The wiki shouldn't include that information simply because it's irrelevant to people who don't own the game (???) as well as new players.

This is pretty atrocious logic. As is comparing Factorio to Minecraft which are two very different beasts. (Not to mention that having to rely on an external resource to figure out recipes in Minecraft is already very obnoxious.)
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby jockeril » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:42 am

I support making tutorials and the tips system - They are lacking and should be more useful to new players,

I think the wiki is very useful, but I didn't use it much because it was always lacking information or out dated. My best teachers where YouTube players like Arumba, MangledPork & negetive-root.

The guild didn't give me much since it was introduced to me late in the game time I already had but it contains good info. New players to Factorio how like to use a step - by - step guide will need it.

So my suggestions are: the guide and tutorials will be updated by the devs or someone other in wube (watch Arumba & the others explaining 0.12 or 0.13 to get an idea of info needed) and the wiki will be a collaboration of wube and the community - so people how want to contribute can do so and help others

Leave the guide online if you don't want to update it and open the code to someone whom you can trust to continue the work if you don't want to do it yourselves

Tl;dr - tips and tricks, tutorials and guide by wube (yes, leave the guide in), wiki by wube and the community
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby SupplyDepoo » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:49 am

Alice3173 wrote:So to summarize:
Don't put useful information in the game. Instead force players to rely on external internet resources.

Your summary is %&$#. I'm saying that the game has almost all of the useful information in it and that players don't have to rely on external sources. I'm not saying that the tips & tricks should be removed, no, in fact I think there are probably a few things that could be added to it. But the game doesn't need to be completely self-documenting about every little thing, which is what the wiki is for. No other game does this either.

Alice3173 wrote:If you need more advanced information for something then that's too bad. The wiki shouldn't include that information simply because it's irrelevant to people who don't own the game (???) as well as new players.
I didn't say that the wiki shouldn't include all of the information. I'm saying that the guide is a better format for someone who's just getting started or just wants to get a good idea of what the game offers.

Alice3173 wrote:This is pretty atrocious logic.

You're the biggest %&$# I've seen on this forum. I'm sorry, but that 'summary' is extremely misleading.
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby PacifyerGrey » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:41 am

Tips and tricks is a good thing. However I do find them a little misplaced.

It would be a good thing to display random T&T on a loading screen. But displaying them in a way of a list...

Maybe connecting T&T to tutorials is a good idea? You make some hint and have a button or a link to proceed to corresponding tutorial if you want to learn more?

It is also a good idea to trigger T&T when a certain item is first placed in the world (or crafted first time). However it should not pop T&T window up momentarily but should display something like a clickable blinking (question mark?) icon which would do it if you want, not interrupting player's gameplay.

And surely you need an ingame option to turn this on and off.
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby Bilka » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:33 am

jockeril wrote: So my suggestions are: the guide and tutorials will be updated by the devs or someone other in wube (watch Arumba & the others explaining 0.12 or 0.13 to get an idea of info needed) and the wiki will be a collaboration of wube and the community - so people how want to contribute can do so and help others


Since apparently the FFF didn't completly explain it: Wube currently has no interest in speding resources on an external guide. Instead they want to make the game so intuitive that you don't need an official guide. The wiki has a guide, mutiple even. All info that was on the first few pages of the official guide can also be found in the quick start guide on the wiki, the rest is linked on the main page and resides in its own articles. And that info is updated, because people like me and Gangsir were willing to put the energy and time into doing so.

Furthermore, the wiki is currently only community driven. Sometimes a dev makes an edit, but usually only if: Only they have that knowledge and I ask them to make that edit. I don't see the devs making more edits in the near future (before 1.0 is out), because most info can be supplied by the community and the devs simply have better things to do. I'd be fully with you if you'd argue that perhaps they should employ someone to let's say... admin the wiki and moderate the forums, but currently they have volunteers like me doing that, and hiring somebody to do the work isn't really worth it for them.

jockeril wrote: Leave the guide online if you don't want to update it and open the code to someone whom you can trust to continue the work if you don't want to do it yourselves


The guide is still somewhat online: https://github.com/wube/factorio-guide And as you can see here, the code has been open for a year now. Yet barely anybody contributed. Even the update to 0.13 was only halfway done. If they have to find someone to update it, I'm pretty sure they'll have to pay that person. The guide has to be completely redone, not just updated with the right numbers and some better images. The structure was weird, the grammar (and spelling) was bad, and it didn't have proper standards for how to format images or whether to capitalise game items etc. And with that we are back to my original point: Wube is currently not willing to spend resources on a guide because they want their game to be playable without a company supplied guide.

Saying that, I personally would be willing to update the guide but only if I'd get paid. Updating (rewriting) that thing would be a pain. More of a pain that completely redoing the wiki oragnisation, like we've done in the past year, because at least we could automate that.
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby Bilka » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:36 am

Zavian wrote:If the guide isn't going to come back, then maybe the community can move some of the info in it into a new section of the wiki. (But that probably isn't something I'd be likely to contribute to myself).


Every single thing that is mentioned in the offical guide is already on the wiki. You can find it here and on the pages in the boxes on the main page.
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby mrvn » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:13 am

teemu wrote:I think the tips & tricks could benefit from a better browser. Right now they're all just crammed in a sequence and finding a specific one was tedious. A list or tree view beside the tips would improve it, IMO, especially if more tips & tricks get added to it.


When you hover over iron ore and press q then you get a miner selected for placement. How about a hot key that would open tips&tricks with a similar logic? So if you hover above an ore patch you gets tips about mining. If you hover over a belt you get tips about belts and so on.
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby Alice3173 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:29 am

SupplyDepoo wrote:I'm saying that the game has almost all of the useful information in it and that players don't have to rely on external sources.

Except there's plenty of things that only get properly covered in the tips. As for the rest of it that you snipped, that's totally different than what your original post states. So if your original post is not in fact what you meant, maybe in the future you should be a bit more careful about how you word things so you get your point across properly?
I didn't say that the wiki shouldn't include all of the information. I'm saying that the guide is a better format for someone who's just getting started or just wants to get a good idea of what the game offers.

Well, as above, what you said certainly gave that impression. If that's not what you meant you need to be a bit more clear.
You're the biggest %&$# I've seen on this forum.

Eloquently put.
I'm sorry, but that 'summary' is extremely misleading.

Not at all? It's a summary of what you said. If it doesn't line up with what you meant then you should reword it because that's how it comes across. It is much more your responsibility to make sure your points are made clearly to other people than it is theirs to try and interpret what you said and manage to figure out that what you meant is actually something totally different than what you actually said.
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby SupplyDepoo » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:36 pm

Alice3173 wrote:
SupplyDepoo wrote:I'm saying that the game has almost all of the useful information in it and that players don't have to rely on external sources.

Not at all? It's a summary of what you said. If it doesn't line up with what you meant then you should reword it because that's how it comes across. It is much more your responsibility to make sure your points are made clearly to other people than it is theirs to try and interpret what you said and manage to figure out that what you meant is actually something totally different than what you actually said.

Are you delusional? Do you think you speak for everyone? So far it's only you who has completely misinterpreted my post.

It's my responsibility to make sure my points are clear, but not yours to interpret them in a sensible way? Wow, that's the most infantile thing I've read on this forum. It's one thing to disagree with me, but to drop some pseudo-intellectual nugget of wisdom to shift the blame onto me, that's childish.

Explain to me, how do you turn this:

I think the tips & tricks system is fine.


Into this:

Don't put useful information in the game.


Explain that, please...

Or this:

I do mourn the loss of the official guide, since I think it was a much friendlier format to give an overview of the game. The wiki is bloated with links and information that doesn't matter to new players or even people who haven't bought the game yet.


Into this:

If you need more advanced information for something then that's too bad. The wiki shouldn't include that information simply because it's irrelevant to people who don't own the game (???) as well as new players.


I'm clearly saying that the wiki is overwhelming to new players. That's not the same as saying that the wiki is overwhelming to everyone, or that it doesn't serve a great purpose for experienced players and developers. Talk about logical fallacies, buddy. Every wiki is bloated, and that's by design. That's not a criticism. That's an observation.

For example, to find that quick start guide that Bilka mentioned, I have to scroll down the main page, past a sea of links and icons competing for my attention, click on 'Tutorials', find the 'Quick start guide' link hidden in a big list of unrelated topics and click it. And it only explains the first hour of freeplay. There's nothing on the wiki that gives a broad overview of the game that I could find. Yes, there are categories, and an item table, and pages explaining all of the game mechanics and technologies, but they're all disjointed and full of detail that's not important to a beginner or prospective buyer. The information is very spread out over many pages, and some things are repeated in different ways depending on the page you're on (which isn't bad when judged as a reference, but is bad when judged as a guide).

There's a reason it's called a 'guide'. The wiki doesn't nudge you in any particular direction, because it nudges you in too many directions. Meanwhile, a guide is meant to hold your hand, and is written as to be read whole, although not necessarily front to back. Now that may not be for everyone. Some may prefer to learn with the wiki, some may prefer to learn with the guide, and the wiki and the guide aren't even in direct opposition to each other. They can be used in conjunction. You can follow the guide and look up specific things that interest you on the wiki. That's what I did before I bought the game.

My point is that a wiki isn't a 1:1 substitute for a guide, unless it has such a guide and it's prominently advertised.

QED
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby Bilka » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:51 pm

SupplyDepoo wrote:For example, to find that quick start guide that Bilka mentioned, I have to scroll down the main page, past a sea of links and icons competing for my attention, click on 'Tutorials', find the 'Quick start guide' link hidden in a big list of unrelated topics and click it.

Changed :)
SupplyDepoo wrote: And it only explains the first hour of freeplay. There's nothing on the wiki that gives a broad overview of the game that I could find.

Could you suggest a way to give a broad overview? I find there is not much after the quick start guide that needs to be included in a broad overview. You craft things with assemblers, you research things, there are enemies. I don't think that things like... say nuclear power, or logistics robots should be included in a broad overview, but I'm curious what you think.

SupplyDepoo wrote:The wiki doesn't nudge you in any particular direction, because it nudges you in too many directions.

Yep, we as a wiki try to be objective, which includes not, well... holding your hand. Which is, like you said, what a guide should do. A guide tells you some layouts, and advertises one idea/way to play the game. We as a wiki try not to do that. So I agree with this:
SupplyDepoo wrote:
My point is that a wiki isn't a 1:1 substitute for a guide, unless it has such a guide and it's prominently advertised.

in the part that the wiki part of the wiki is not a replacement for a guide. But the tutorial part is or should or can be.
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby bobucles » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:52 pm

Factorio tip #1: All problems in factorio can be solved by building more.

I think the "train tutorial" button should be more of a general help button. Click a giant "?", activate tutorial mode, and click on anything to open up a tutorial page on it. This way you can show how everything in the game works at any time. Some things like belts and splitters have a lot of tricks to show off. Fortunately they have multiple item tiers which allow you to showcase the simple "how to" tips for yellow, "cool things" for red, and "crazy things" for blue.
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Re: Friday Facts #208 - Tips and tricks improvement

Postby argbla » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:45 pm

A small thing that makes a big difference: add a (tip number)/(total number of tips) somewhere on the tips window. I am much more likely to read tips if I have an idea of where I am in the tip list. It is really nice to have an idea of how many you've read and how many you have left when reading through them. Also it makes it clear it is a list and not a randomly chosen tip each time you hit next. It sounds silly, but I've seen it done that way far too many times.
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